10 most practical martial art... (Page 3)
JeanYves72: That alone shows the immaturity of your mindset and emotions. Power of the body fades eventually. But the mind and spirit, if fed properly and exercised right can only grow more powerful. You are no master. It takes years to come close to being one. A young man needs to feed his ego and as such feels the need out of his own insecurity to pump up his toughness to others. A mature man, a real martial artist has nothing to prove to others for he is comfortable within himself. I am sorry if it sounds harsh but the truth can be. It is the philosophy that makes the martial arts just that, an art. Without the philosophy to build mind, heart and spirit you become nothing more than a ego fuel thug who will get themselves hurt, killed or go too far in a confrontation and destroy not just others lives but their own.
I have no doubt that Spiritual Master has been studing tha arts longer than me and I have been doing it for longer than you have been alive. So maybe we may have an understanding that you may not. A truly mature person, a real martial artist would take advantage of the knowledge of others who have been at it longer or may have a more deeper understanding. Even the masters, real masters understand and do this with real humility.
You are not your own master. Your emotions and ego master you.
JeanYves72: 5 years training does not make a martial artist. You are talking to 2 people who have being studying the arts for longer than you have been alive. Why would I be upset as I do not know you. The words you use indicate that ego is involved. That you are angry at our comments which are not designed to belittle of ridicule you. All we are doing is trying to impart some of our experience and knowledge to you. I for one acknowledge that I do not know everything about martial arts and will continue to learn until the day I die. That is the beauty and joy of actually living the martial way. being a true bugeisha. Techniques are not the most important part of the martial arts. All they are is a stepping stone to greater understanding of yourself, others, and the universe.
As for your offer to train with you I have to refuse. I live in Australia.
(Edited by JeanYves72)
JeanYves72: There is no such thing as an unbeatable move. Actually I am wrong...walking away from a fight if at all possible is unbeatable as the idea is not to be hurt or to hurt another if at all possible. The very fact that you say you are a natural is an indication that there is an ego. A person with little no ego would not have to say such a thing. Knowledge is power. That comes about in the arts from a holistic approach. Body. Mind. Spirit. Formal training is essential in anything for a Sensei has the experience both by vision and by feel what is the essence behind a technique. What makes it work. The nuances. I trained with people up to 9th Dan and they have mostly said the same thing. They are always learning. The feel like they are still beginners. That is humble. I have been on the receiving end of techniques and even holding back they have proven to be far from beginners. They have also worked the mind and spirit. They have the respect of students because they show respect and are humble. I am not 'bashing' another form. It is not a form for it has no substance. Nothing but a way of beating up another person if at all possible. 5 years of training is still very much a beginner. Everything up to Shodan (1st degree black belt) is learning the basics. You don't really start to learn until after then.
To be honest anyone can copy moves. It takes a martial artist to understand a technique. Make it a natural part of their movement. And that takes training under someone more knowledgeable and an understanding of the human mind and body.
JeanYves72: I don't know more than anyone else. I have never said that. Concentrate on only the physical aspects of an art and you remain driven by a need to prove yourself, you will miss the point of training, the real point. That is your body is temporary, actually the weak point. It can be hurt, damaged and destroyed. Our mind and spirit outlast the body. The body breaks down over time. Fact of life. You miss the point of my mentioning belts. I mentioned them as a point that the longer you train with the view of a holistic approach the more you understand the nuances of the art and techniques. Read anything about the great masters of the arts. Their thoughts.
As for your choke hold you need to remember one thing. There is a difference between sparring on a mat or out doors with someone who is not really trying to harm you and being in a confrontation where real harm or death is a possibility. A ring and real life are different. There is a different flow. And unless the person stays still long enough you won't be getting it on them. Unless it knocks out a person immediately then there is the chance for a counter-technique. And there are always counters.
JeanYves72: 2 seconds? That is plenty of time for someone who can 'feel' the technique and energy of the person. That is why flow is vital in a confrontation. Fluidity.
spiritualmaster: aarondelo: spiritial cuz u dont learn this form in a school i think you are not a martial artist beacause u have no idea what they were created for it was for self defence so go back to the thrift store and get a book on martial arts just like u got the attire
spiritualmaster: Arron above is a copy of your reply to me .I have to say this in a nice way as my whole life is built around positive energy only .So I will have to say this nicely you cannot put a old head on young shoulders .Iam certain Jean knows what I mean .Look it does not matter what you think I know about martial arts I certainly do not have to go get a book on it to learn about it, I have published a few books about Martial arts .That you would never find on any book shelf but in many well known Martial arts schools and temples throughout the world .Books that can only be read by selective criterea .
Arron you are blinded by arogance, and Jean is right you want to stroke your own ego ,I say this in a nice way I do not doubt that you train hard and practice hard you sound that your full of beans and ready to take on the world .I know more choke holds then is possible .Dating back from thousands of years ago to the original choker in Wrestling matches in greek and Roman history ,
The choke you talk about is not new and has been practised and used for centuries in aikido .Where the deffender chokes himself by pulling on the arm or by dropping down in a drop position Aikido practises that for centuries where the whole system is built around using the persons own strength as a weakness .Jean is right there is no move that is invincible .Even in your arm lock a Karate chop or a hammer hit would very easily render you incapable or unconcious depending on position and stance not to mention a good hard bight will also render a release ..
Martial arts was originaly taught and learnt for the sole purpose of defending onself against animals not humans .And originally that is why a lot of martial art was taught imitating animals the martial artist acted like a monkey and done monkey moves because some animals would run from monkeys some would use snake moves some would mix these moves up .So yes mixed martial arts is nothing new either .Bruce Lee done a good job of mixing martial arts and came up with his own brand .The point that you have missed though and the point that Jean-Yves tried to tell you was that there is principles to learn in real martial arts and philosophy .I will not try and tell you because you are talking about a completely different subject then me and Jean .Also in Jean Yves defence no where does he state he is a fighter or holds belts .But i can assure you he certainly knows the principles and the true meanings of the art .It does not matter where he acquired this knowledge .He has acquired it though .You would be surprised some martial artists only accquire the knowledge alone as the knowledge is the greatest power you could have ..I will leave you with one more post please reflect on it I will put it below
It is what real martial art is all about learn from it please and you will become better then you could have ever been .It is not my writtings but a very dear friend of mine and i carry it around in my pocket all folded up and read it when troubled
spiritualmaster: This was written by Seamus Mulholand 8 dan shotokan karate and 6 dan batto-jutsu it explains the true principles of martial arts in laymans terms so the every day person can understand
is usual to make the assumption that since the Martial Arts emerged in the east, they must carry with them some of the mysticism that goes with all things oriental (at least to a Western mind), and that they are deeply rooted in Zen Buddhist philosophy — at least if the breathtaking spectacularity of the Shaolin Monks is anything to go by. It is true that there is a different conception in the west of what underlies the Martial Arts in what we may broadly call a 'philosophical' way. But does the Martial Arts have a 'philosophy' in its own right? If we take philosophy in its literal translation from Greek 'love of wisdom' then the answer is a resounding yes, if we take the term philosophy as it is understood in the perennial philosophy of the West, then the answer is no.
Philosophy exists for many things: to understand the world, to comprehend things as they are in themselves, to detect errors in thought, to offer a solution to fundamental questions that beset humanity and so on. However, if we take the original translation 'love of wisdom' and apply it to the Martial Arts, and place the emphasis on the word wisdom, then Martial Arts has a rich, deep, and profound philosophy inherent in it.
The Martial Arts at the surface level are about learning those physical techniques that ensure our personal safety through acquiring the ability to defend ourselves against attackers and also to achieve some very remarkable feats of physical prowess (many people generally associate this with breaking things — 'tameshiriwara' is the proper term for it. But in modern study of Martial Arts that is 'old hat', (as Mr, Miayagi says in 'The Karate Kid' movie, 'Bricks don't hit back'.) Unfortunately, in the 30 odd years I have been studying the Martial Arts, I have never been be able to pause in mid-air, or stand on the branch of a tree — but isn't it wonderful cinema!!!. But what I have discovered in Martial Arts training and teaching, is that there is an understanding of the fundamentals of the human condition. This is why most practitioners of Martial Arts will say that they study a 'do' (doh), a 'Way', that it is not simply the physical techniques that they study and train hard in, but the Way of the Martial Arts.
In this sense, the Martial Arts as a Way (and Paul, for example, referred to Christianity as the Way, the ancient Chinese speak of the 'dao' the Way) of being in the world, and perceiving and reflecting on the world is as valid a way as Western analytical philosophy. Where western philosophy seeks to understand life by intellectual and analytical reflection and comprehension, the Martial Arts as a 'way' seeks to understand by living. So it is that the Way of Martial Arts as a philosophical discipline is about understanding the truth and the reality of life as it is by living it.
Of course the fanciful esotericism that is imposed upon it by the West is out of place. There is only one Martial Art that is closely associated with a pure philosophical way of being in the world, and that is Kyudo — the Art of the Japanese Bow (Archery), but the more traditionally understood Martial Arts, karate, judo etc., would not speak of themselves as philosophical martial arts. They would emphasise the 'martial' aspect of the art but even within the 'martial' aspect, we can still learn something of how to move through the world (as Tsun Zhu's Art of War , of the Five Rings of Miyomoto Musahis, the greatest swordsman ever, can attest).
The philosophy of Martial Arts bases itself on shin, gin, tai — mind, body, spirit (in much the same way that the Hebrew psychology of Man in the Genesis myth conceives of Man as mind, body, and spirit). In the West we have tended to emphasise body and soul and thus, intentionally or otherwise, we have created a dualism rather than an integrated vision of the human condition. Most Martial Arts instructors will emphasise the body aspect through their dedicated training, and the mind, through mental preparation to undertake the harsh, demanding, exhausting and very, very physical, training to achieve the required levels in Martial Arts excellence. Few would emphasise the 'spiritual'.
Yet, the Martial Arts possesses, as a holistic approach to life (shin, gin, tai) a profound spirituality and 'philosophy' and it possesses these not because it has reflected on them in an analytical way, but because it has lived them out existentially. Thus, Ginchin Funokoshi, the founder of modern karate, could develop the '20 Precepts of Karate' and his first precept was 'Karate always begins and ends with respect'. This respect is a respect for the totality of reality as it exists in itself. Funokoshi does not give a definition of reality, he does have to, he intuits that the truth of reality is that it is — it does not need an analytical process of intellectual labour to define it. Another of his precepts 'There is no first initiative in karate' (katate ni senti nashi) aims to guarantee that the Way of Karate is kept free from any taint of aggression — for to initiate an attack is an aggressive act and an aggressive act is contrary not just to the spirit of Karate, but also to life itself.
Thus, one of the primary philosophical tenets of the Martial Arts would be a paradox to the western analytical mind: the preservation of life rather than the taking of it through developing amazing physical skills that on the surface level seem violent and aggressive. But does it not stand true that the rigorous training in Martial Arts equips you with the skills necessary to inflict serious harm on another person? The answer is yes, but the true Martial Artist would answer, why would I wish to do that if I am training for excellence and perfection not just of Martial Arts skills but in life skills? Hence, the Martial Artist would not see the paradox because they would not understand it. The Martial Artist has only one thing to perfect and that is him/herself, and in that sense then he/she has only one opponent, the self, the ego, the preoccupation with a way of being in the world that is centred on me, myself and I and has no altruism in it.
In one of the other Martial Arts I have been studying for the same length of time, Batto-Jutsu (Samurai Sword), there is a strict code of behaviour and respect that underpins everything the swordsman does. The sword takes on a reality of its own to the extent that the sword (katana) is more important that the one who wields it. The aim of such a Martial Art is the 'perfect draw and cut' and that is seen as one single action — it is not expostulated as an Aristotelian cause and effect. The cause of the sword to be drawn is not the hand of the swordsman who draws it — there is no cause because the sword exists as a reality itself and does not need anything else less than itself (the human hand) to allow to be what it — a katana.
Thus, things are allowed to be what they are in themselves without it being necessary to analyse why they are that thing in the world as an existent. There is also a profound philosophy of life. Since karate (I practice and teach Shotokan Karate) is built on respect then the greatest respect that can be given is to whatever exists as a thing in itself in the world as that thing. In other words, respect for life predominates all Martial Arts practice and training. So, when my students say to me 'What is the best self defence technique', I always tell them it is running away. It is running away because the way not to be attacked is not to be there, the best way not to hurt anyone else is to walk away. That way no one gets hurt, since the object of the Martial Arts is self perfection there is no perfection in aggression or violence. And therein lies the ethics of Martial Arts since it seeks to preserve the truth and reality of things as they in the world without destroying them.
Western analytics (indeed as a lecturer in philosophy I am one of them) would seek a definition of reality, and what constitutes reality in the mind of a Martial Artist who is seriously into their Martial Arts (as I am) since what constitutes reality in the mind of one may not necessarily constitute reality in the mind of another. But karate, for example, as a word itself contains something of the Martial Arts understanding of reality. Karate is made up of two words 'kara' = empty, te = hand (e.g. karaoke = kara-empty oke = orchestra!). Here the 'empty' does not just signify that the karate-ka (student of karate) does not possess a weapon, but also that what he does possess is nothing, an emptiness. In other words, there is nothing that exists beyond the person existing at that moment.
Herein lies the creativity of the Martial Arts. Techniques when called by an instructor are only words, they have meaning only as techniques, it is only when the karate-ka brings them into being through their training that they have any reality. So then many Martial Arts would be Occamist Nominalists!! (and as a Franciscan priest, I would have no problem with that!) since the name of the technique is only that a name, a signifier. So it is only when the mind conceives the idea of the technique, the body brings it into action through its physical expression, and the spirit empowers it with vigour, power, that one gets a true sense of the real metaphysics that are in Martial Arts.
But it not simply a physical event — it is also spiritual event, if we understand spiritual with a metaphysical bent as pertaining to the 'spirit' of all things that defines their being in the world and accept Duns Scotus' concept of the object of metaphysics as the study of being-qua-being. Assuming this, one can then suggest that apart from the mental architecture that Martial Arts training helps build, there is an intelligible architecture because things are perceived in the world as they are as that thing through the Martial Artists perception of themselves in the world. Thus, the other triadic emphases of Martial Arts, Discipline, Etiquette, Respect, balance the metaphysical one of Mind, Body, Spirit, and the empirical triads of Training, Practice, Dedication, balance the ethical ones of Peace, Justice, Integrity.
So is there a 'philosophy' in Martial Arts? Speaking as a teacher of philosophy, a priest, a Scotist, and an experienced Martial Artist I say an empathic and resounding yes. It is as valid a way of being in the world as a religious way, and it is as valid a perception of the world as a western philosophical way. It does not possess the Ten Categories of Aristotle, nor does it possess a theory of the Forms of Plato, or an emanation of all things for the One as does Plotinian Neoplatonism, and it does not possess the insights of Positivism, or Cartesianism, but it does possess its own value system, and its own perceptions of the reality of existent things.
It does not need to classify those existent things into categories, or to seek to understand their metaphysical make up, but it does recognise that whatever way they exist in the world, they exist, even if it is only as shadows, or illusions. It is this struggle to understand being that confronts us all and I believe Scotus is right, that the proper object of metaphysics is being and while Scotus says it is being-qua-being and from that develops his wonderful theory of the Univocity of Being, I would say that if it is being-qua-being that is the proper object of metaphysics, then that study must be indiscriminate, and utilise whatever is in the world, or the mind, or the processes of philosophical investigation to help us contemplate, understand, reflect and express what that being is.
Quite aside from the philosophical questions that Martial Arts might throw into relief, there is another aspect of Martial Arts which many western practitioners fail to see and that is its aesthetic. Martial Arts is simply beautiful to look at when it is done properly. It is as graceful, as skilled, as deft and as fluid and flowing as ice-dance, ballroom dancing, gymnastics. I believe this is so because the form of the Martial Arts depends on an understanding not just of accidental in physical movement but how those movements as shapes appear to the onlooker and to the one engaged in the movements themselves. To see the gracefulness of the ancient art of Aikido, or the strong symmetry of a skilled samurai swordsman, or the powerful, strong yet perfectly balanced movement of a karate-ka is to understand that while these movements have what some may consider to be a dubious purpose (hurting people), in themselves they are works of art.
I am a Franciscan and a priest, a teacher of philosophy and a Martial Artist and the key phrase there is 'I am', I am not someone who 'does' these things; Martial Arts are not a 'hobby' — they are, and continue to be, integral to my life as a human person, as a priest, as a Franciscan, as a teacher, as a philosopher. So is there a 'philosophy' in Martial Arts? — yes, a very sophisticated, challenging, beautiful one.
spiritualmaster: if anyone would like to send a email to Seamus let me know and i will give you his email .as long as it is not about the fighting aspects of martial arts but of the philosophy
JeanYves72: Please. I have been looking for someone like him to actually converse with, to learn from, for many, many years.
JeanYves72: You need to study the history of Jeet Kune Do aaron. Bruce Lee lived in Hong Kong originally. It was not in China. He also developed Jeet Kune Do in America. He taught a modified version of Wing Chun in America. The history of Martial arts in the East goes back 2500 years to Buddha and the Shaolin Temple. It was there where he taught exercises to the monks. It was from there that the Gung Fu was developed. But at no time was it originally taught and is not taught in the temples even today purely for self defence.
Did you read the articles by Sensei Mulholand? I looked him up. He has an insight as is evident by his words that can be learnt from. He is the essence of a true master.
JeanYves72: In reply to the anger you display in your last post to resort to the anger and abuse you have displayed when we have been polite does show that you are ruled by ego as it does not like to be exposed so one goes into defensive/offensive mode. Real health benefits from the arts are to the mind, emotions, character. If we are centered and calm, show respect and compassion, then we are healthy. O'Sensei (Morihei Ueshiba) discovered the essence of Budo. He actually paraphrased a Scripture from the Bible when he said "Bu is Love" There is no need to attack us. No need to be so angry. If you were truly secure in what you do then you would feel no need to defend yourself. I started on my path in a similar mindset to you but my son when he was born was the one who taught me the real essence behind the martial arts and to being a real man. Very simple. Just as O'Sensei said...Love. That means respect, humbleness where it is appropriate, compassion, empathy, gentleness in speech and actions.
JeanYves72: Actually it is not on the Chinese Mainland and until 1999 was a British Colony. In is not in China but a part of the Chinese territory now. You only concentrate on the physical aspects of martial arts without delving into the essence of them. That makes you a fighter, not a martial artist. I myself am constantly learning just how little I do know and understand. But I love learning. You must have the mind of a child to learn. To be open to guidance from those who have more experience and insight. You don't have a martial art, just a way of fighting. Techniques do not make a martial art, the philosophy which moulds the attitude and character of the student do. Read books by the masters. Study the philosophy of the arts from which you derive your techniques. I will always defer to those who do have more insight and knowledge of such things and will always be open to learning from people who do show me where I need fine-tuning. But unless you live the philosophy then you are nothing more than a fighter with some knowledge rather than a martial artist in the truest sense.
JeanYves72: I have yet to come across any martial art instructor that would tell someone not to be formally trained unless they thought that that person was wasting their time or not ready emotionally and the instructor wanted to let them down nicely. I listen. I just don't agree with what you are saying. How do you know that your mind is far passed mine? You are almost half my age and I have been studying since before you were born. The head instructors of any style in the world has become that not because of only technical proficancy but also mental and spiritual strength as well. They always are learning and admit it. A true master knows that they will always be learning. A technique is felt, not done. A technique is just that. Technical. It does the work, not you. There is not just physical training but also mental and spiritual as well. 3 tiers if you remember with the bottom being physical.
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