Conservationism (Page 3) If the stars fell: the idea that you can do what you want... yet have to take no responsibility for how it impacts the world.. is stupid  the real slim DEEPy: more climate change research endowments should be directed towards marine biology, since encouraging bountiful sea life can absorb/process more than enough atmospheric co2 to nullify the atmospheric greenhouse gas effect the real slim DEEPy: 90% of the oceans surface is unexplored, and 99% of the oceans floors are unexplored. and we have definitely acidified the oceans to the point that they can no longer produce sufficient green algae to filter the carbon compounds out of the atmosphere in this industrial/post-industrial age. deforestation and the destrution of the rainforests is another bane on our terrian biosphere- usually done in the name of capitalism. i do support capitalism, but i also support the rights of any persons or groups to be able to sue capitalist entites for damages, including damages to the enviornment. i would perfer that politicians repeal old laws, instead of make new ones; however, i strongly advocate the politically motivated to do their homework, and discover a way to use the court system to hold accountable those who would deccimate our shared enviornment, and, not just ourts, but belonging to all subsequent generations, not yet even born.  LiptonCambell: >>>the idea that you can do what you want... yet have to take no responsibility for how it impacts the world.. is stupid But the idea that you hold personal code of ethics, but will only follow this code so long as everyone in the entire world also follows an identical code of ethics- that's just bright. I mean, you admit that your code of ethics is impossible to implement. What good is a code of ethics that you cannot possibly follow, and always leaves you as a sinner? “Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.” " "Through centuries of scourges and disasters, brought about by your code of morality, you have cried that your code had been broken, that the scourges were punishment for breaking it, that men were too weak and too selfish to spill all the blood it required. You damned men, you damned existence, you damned this earth, but never dared to question your code. Your victims took the blame and struggled on, with your curses as reward for their martyrdom - while you went on crying that your code was noble, but human nature was not good enough to practice it. And no one rose to ask the question: Good? - by what standard?" "I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged If the stars fell: believe what you wish, but if you believe that all that matters in life is what benefits you, without making any sacrifice, you are a cancer on the world... i might also add that that statement doesnt even apply to me, you dont know me nearly well enough to make such assumptions... i question everything, and come to conclusions for a reason, i do what i can to be the change i want to see in the world... as i said before, minimizing the damage... your idea of whats good appears to be anything that profits you, with zero accountability... which is just sad, because you are the majority... ill be laughing my ass off when your way of life falls apart because you not only were unwilling to make a sacrifice, but actively try to make the point that you shouldnt have to If the stars fell: and by the way... atlas shrugs is a retarded pile of garbage... and the author is a narcissistic, self centered, egomaniacal waste of life, whos ideology is poison to the psyche... that you so readily eat up like it were cancer vaccine (Edited by If the stars fell) LiptonCambell: Have you read Atlas Shrugged? And you didn't address the comments I wrote- your ethical beliefs, by your own admission, cannot be achieved. Does that not mean that anyone attempting to share your beliefs, and yourself as well, are doomed to fail and never achieve what they feel is moral? That, to follow your ethics is to be a sinner, and nothing more? And why not start an Amish community? Give your fellow man some credit- if your beliefs are rational, then an Amish community is the only possible solution, and more and more people will turn to this society. But I find your "I won't do what I tell other people to do unless everyone does it together" attitude to be morally bankrupt. You state what is moral, then openly and constantly defy it- for no other reason than your own personal comfort, with, according to you, the world on the line.... If the stars fell: what does sin have to do with anything? im in no way religous, it is not a factor in how i view the world... why would i start an amish community if i didnt believe in god... i might also add that land isnt free, even for the amish lol i never said i wouldnt try to change anything if other people dont join me, in fact i said that i do what i can being one man, which is extremely limited... im not the only one, but such people are far and few between... you are just a member of the swarm... eating up anything you can get your grubby mitts on because you think you deserve it... making community doesnt make you exempt from society... the amish pay taxes too, to fund all the things they dont even use, it is thrust upon you, you have no choice... i will continue to do what good i can, as i always have, even though its too far gone... wether or not you join me has no bearing on what change i can make in the world... small though it may be LiptonCambell: I think where we divide here is choice. I don't think sacrifice doesn't exist, or shouldn't exist- but I think sacrifice should be a choice- not forced on people whom you, or society, or government deems as worthy of sacrifice. Sacrifice without choice is slavery- and giving up freedom to "conserve" the world is a world not worth saving. Do you disagree? If the stars fell: freedom is an illusion... and i said nothing about forcing anyone to do anything... i just think its sad that people are so unwilling to make a difference, and all that matters to them is what THEY want... regardless of how it effects anyone, or anything else... if we ever have any hope to change it, we need to work together... and also... we are already forced to be a part of the problem... you are forced regardless of what you do, its just that the current state of the world favors the greedy, which harms us all... you are already a slave LiptonCambell: >>>what does sin have to do with anything? I'm using the word "sin" as an analogy. Meaning, to defy ones personal code of ethics is a sin. I am not talking about sin in a religious sense- just sin as another word for "contradictory ethics" >>>why would i start an amish community if i didnt believe in god... Because they have a far smaller impact on society than you do. They don't use electricity, or combustion engines, or advanced metals, or carve the land up- they live off the land, and cause little to no negative impacts on the environment. You claim to do what you can to minimize your impact- you could be doing more- you could start a secular Amish community, with the intent of living a life dedicated to preserving nature. Instead, you continue to be part of the problem, and blame others for things that you are a part of. >>>i might also add that land isnt free So? Are you suggesting something you gotta work towards isn't worth doing? Damn, you're gunna be pissed when you gotta grow your own food.... >>>i do what i can being one man, which is extremely limited... You....you don't understand what "Community" means when I say Amish Community, do you? Like, there will be a village of you, all with similar beliefs.... >>> but such people are far and few between Have you ever thought that there might be a reason for that? Or do you simply assume that the vast majority of people just have no ability to judge their own world as you can? >>>you are just a member of the swarm... eating up anything you can get your grubby mitts on because you think you deserve it And you aren't? Again, the internet is insanely destructive. Just because you eat Organic food or whatever doesn't mean you're absolved of your sins. And I take it from the fact that you never answered the very clear question, that you've never read the book? I guess your beliefs are too fragile to question, eh? LiptonCambell: >>> i just think its sad that people are so unwilling to make a difference Why aren't you? Stop using electricity, stop buying computers, stop buying the products that cause the most harm. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You shouldn't judge people for harming the environment, while the medium you're using to express that beliefs harms the environment. >>> you are forced regardless of what you do, its just that the current state of the world favors the greedy, which harms us all... Haha right. Because you can't just put down the computer and change your lifestyle. It doesn't count unless everyone else does it with you. I love how you claim that you aren't trying to force anyone- but you blame all of society is forcing you. How is that not a contradiction? If your beliefs ruled, then it would continue to be "forced" on those who disagreed. The only choice you have in the matter is personal choice. Put down the computer, move out of your moms basement, buy a plot of land and live off the grid. Hopefully, people will follow your example If the stars fell: you pretend like its just that easy which it isnt, the point i make by saying it costs money, and you have to pay taxes again, that of what you do, you are paying to contribute to it, its not like i can just go out and stake a claim on land, having to pay for it is contrary to the entire idea of living apart from civilization... im not forcing anything on anyone, society is definitely forcing it on everyone... its not about law, its about making the right choices YOURSELF, not having to be forced to do it, thats the sad thing... you wont ever do it because no one is ever going to force to you do it... not saying they should, it should just go without saying... and again you dont know shit about me, where i live or what i do "Put down the computer, move out of your moms basement, buy a plot of land and live off the grid." is just purely whipped out of your ass with no basis on any information you have at all... good luck trying to detach from civilization entirely... its designed intentionally so you cant do it, making a little community with like minded people isnt going to make a significant difference anyway... itll just make you feel better about yourself, and the use of technology isnt really the issue, we should use this technology to improve our methodology, to be less wasteful... and to renew resources we have already accumulated... im not the sort of person that goes out and buys a new computer every year, or a new phone every month, ive had this same computer for nearly 8 years actually lol but again... the point im trying to make is its unrealistic to detach yourself from civilization... because you will be forced to participate wether you want to or not... again... AGAIN... minimize the damage... id bet you that im far less destructive than you are, and its intentional, you on the other hand obviously couldnt care less about how you impact the ecology of the earth as long as you get what you want... you are certainly not in any position to cast stones yourself, as your ideal world is the opposite of preservation, empathy, and proper utilization of resources... its not about being unwilling to work to get what i want... again thats based on nothing, as you know exactly nothing about me... i would gladly grow my own food and build my own home, the point is... to make the money that society forces you to have requires you to be a part of it, even if i owned land i would have to pay for the taxes... which means i would have to have a job, which means im part of civilization, i cant jsut grow my own food and live off the land if theres no way for me to make money as its a necessary component to such a lifestyle....which is still contributing to the things i hate about the world... its designed that way on purpose, so people like you can benefit from me... because thats all anyone cares about... good luck buying a chunk of land and paying taxes with a minimum wage job... or you can go to college put yourself into debt work for 25 years and eventually get to the actual starting point... which again is a huge contribution ot society monetarily... which again... is contrary to the original idea... ITS DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY SO YOU CANT DO IT WITHOUT BEING A PART OF CIVILIZATION... fact If the stars fell: obviously the only thing that matters to you is the bottom line... money... objects... putting yourself before anyone else... and that is sickening to me... look at the state of the world... its because of people like you that so many others suffer so greatly... not that you really care LiptonCambell: >>> the point i make by saying it costs money So? I find it appauling that you think you can dictate morality to others, insulting them should they disagree("you are a cancer on the world", but should you actually have to WORK for your beliefs, then it isn't worth it.... >>>having to pay for it is contrary to the entire idea of living apart from civilization No it isn't. The idea is that you, personally, do not contribute to the pollution and harm to the environment. Paying taxes has nothing to do with anything, and frankly, you will pay taxes whether you make this stand or not- the only difference is, you'd make far less a harmful impact- something you've already stated is your goal, since your actual goal is impossible(again, your words) >>> im not forcing anything on anyone I disagree entirely. Lets say your world comes true- your ideology is the majority, and mine is the minority. I want to build a coal plant to make cheap electricity- can I? Or am I being *forced* to accept a belief I do not ascribe to? You can't have it both ways. You can't say you are being forced to accept a belief you do not ascribe to because people have SUV's, but, if your beliefs become popular, I'm not forced to accept a belief I do not ascribe to because the grocery stores no longer offer GMO's. >>>You wont ever do it because no one is ever going to force to you do it No, I won't do it because you haven't convinced me of the need for it. You are calling for me to drastically change my lifestyle for a belief I feel is flawed, and form of self-immolation. If nothing else, I think I've proven that a morality that treats it's followers as sick and twisted is a morality I want nothing to do with. >>>.... is just purely whipped out of your ass with no basis on any information you have at all... Yea, I thought that was pretty funny... >>>good luck trying to detach from civilization entirely.. I'm not trying to. I'm suggesting your beliefs and your logic are flawed, and the Amish Community idea is really your only method to follow your beliefs and still claim to be "moral" >>>making a little community with like minded people isnt going to make a significant difference anyway... But going green and complaining people don't agree with you is? Will it change the lifestyles of 7 billion people? perhaps not- but it certainly is better than whining that nothing can be done, deciding to recycle more, and damn others for giving you such a comfortable life. >>> and the use of technology isnt really the issue It isn't? Technology has nothing to do with what has happened to the environment? >>>we should use this technology to improve our methodology, to be less wasteful... "But stars- if we improve our technology, wouldn't that make the previous infrastructure obsolete, necessitating it to be replaced with a next generation, in a repeating cycle of waste" Lol and I suppose you think the invention of BluRay helped reduce waste... >>> ive had this same computer for nearly 8 years actually lol Did you recycle old computers to make this one? >>>.. minimize the damage... How is going Amish not doing exactly that? >>>you on the other hand obviously couldnt care less about how you impact the ecology of the earth as long as you get what you want... Did you think about the ecology when you bought that computer? Still, you've been awfully busy building that strawman, eh? It's funny- I say you live in your moms basement, and you cry foul- you start talking about what I think and feel, and don't think anything is amiss. I guess it's okay for you to pretend you understand me, but wrong for me to pretend I understand you. >>>, as your ideal world is the opposite of preservation, empathy, What do you know of my ideal world? >>>and proper utilization of resources... Haha and what is "proper utilization of resources"? >>>. to make the money that society forces you to have requires you to be a part of it, even if i owned land i would have to pay for the taxes... I'm sorry- so you don't work? You're not currently paying taxes? Otherwise, that distinction is moot. >>>i cant jsut grow my own food and live off the land if theres no way for me to make money as its a necessary component to such a lifestyle.... Sell your food to hippies. Rent out a room. Work outside of your Amish Community. How do you think the Amish pay their taxes? Through Prayer? >>>.which is still contributing to the things i hate about the world... Which is something you would be doing, with or without being off the grid. The only difference is, there's one more person creating that much more pollution if you stay on the grid. >>>you is the bottom line... money... objects... putting yourself before anyone else... There you go again, making crass assumptions of how I live my life. Maybe I simply disagree with your stances, without putting myself ahead of anyone else? Ever ponder that? >>>.. its because of people like you that so many others suffer so greatly... Really? I thought people suffer because of an inbalance in wealth- if enough production is done, everything gets cheaper, and the poorer peoples can get a chance at living a higher standard of living. Conversely, if we make common resources rare, by cutting back on production, like say computers, then computers will cost more and more, and less and less people will have access to such comforts. Suffering doesn't end by stopping production- suffering ends by producing enough for everyone. If the stars fell: the price of objects are hardly measured by the ease in which we can produce them... for example, i could feed a village in africa for a week with the price it would cost me to buy a cheeseburger... yet we have like 7% of the worlds populations and nearly 40% of the worlds resources, yet we still have poverty... in the USA.... so yes, your greed and sefishness hurts others, because you are unwilling to contribute to the betterment of the lives of other people... unless you make a substantial profit from it... when you have a majority of all the money and you keep it for yourself, thats less all around for everyone else... so you are totally wrong on that account...by all means, look it up.... theres enough houses for everyone to have a home... but we still have homeless people... and yes taxation has MUCH to do with the destruction of the worlds ecosystem, because that money is going to pay for things that do the enviroment harm... not to mention extreme tax breaks for the ultra wealthy that couldnt spend all their money in a lifetime even if they tried... as far as technology goes, im not talking about the advancement of personal enjoyment, im talking about efficient energy, finding new and better ways to reuse and recycle the things we already have... computers can benefit people by making information and resources more widly available for everyone to access and potentially increase their quality of life... i see ZERO merit in your me first philosophy... theres really no arguing that its selfish... and borderline sociopathic... i realize you dont agree with me, and i couldnt care less... whatever you have to tell yourself to make you feel like you arent part of the problem... but you obviously are... like it or not If the stars fell: just because i have lofty goals, and i realize that it will likely never happen, has nothing to do with wether or not im willing to try... a concept you clearly cant wrap your head around LiptonCambell: >>>.... so yes, your greed and sefishness hurts others, because you are unwilling to contribute to the betterment of the lives of other people... unless you make a substantial profit from it... when you have a majority of all the money and you keep it for yourself, thats less all around for everyone else... What in the hell are you talking about? Are you seriously blaming me for the inaction every rich person in America? Why the hell aren't you going without a Cheeseburger if you think that's all it takes to feed a village? >>>. theres enough houses for everyone to have a home... but we still have homeless people... Again, why the hell aren't you inviting the homeless in live in your house? Why in the hell are you acusing me of denying homeless people shelter? Jesus Christ man are you going to accuse me of doing all the rape and theft in the US too? If the stars fell: no im not talking about you in particular, i dont know enough about you to say that... im talking about the damage that being selfish and greedy does to the world... you cannot live within civilization without contributing to in... commune or otherwise, you play a part one way or another... thats just the way it is... i cant house every homeless person in the world... the point is, people would rather let a building rot to rubble rather than let a homeless person live within it if they cant maximize their profit... if theres enough for everyone... why is it that everyone doesnt have enough? If the stars fell: "Burn The Earth" Putrid Beast Mutant With A Bloody Fist Puking Acid In The Night You're Diseased Medical Experiments Took Away Your Human Life For A Fee Just A Student With No Money Grabbed A flyer Paid The Price now you're free... The Gasoline And Dynamite Will Light The Sky For The Night theres.... nothing to save... you're my slave... burn the earth... for minimum wage... pour the gas light the match.. burn... If the stars fell: and its not the cheeseburger... its the price of a cheeseburger... the price of a cheeseburger could feed a village... if we have most of the resources... why is it that a cheeseburger costs enough money that you could feed an entire village with that same amount of money? the real slim DEEPy: food safety, minimum wage for low level hires, and competitive salaries for management and exec staff, health, building and disability access codes, workmans comp. that cheeseburger which could feed a villiage only sees an actual 3% profit, because it is expensive to comply with us business law and city inspectors. edt* and since our archetects have degrees from overpriced american universities, their base pay aint cheap, and to account for every building safety, fire code, zoning law, disibility access and such, just preparing and filing the blueprints for county approval for, say,a 3 bay auto repair facility can cost 3/4 of a million dollars, without laying the first brick- and thats in a red state, which normally aremore business friendly.. must suck to be in cali. *edit* the building, safety, fire inspectors and such, and the paper pushers who approve bulding designs and zoning are notoriously slow and dificult in cali and nyc. it takes 3x longer to open a new business location in cali, then in texas. (Edited by the real slim DEEPy) |