Support Ukraine in its fight for European Union! (Page 4)

calybonos
calybonos: That's just it. If there is no more Canada, his birth records will be invalid and we can sell him and that caterwauling Celine Dion to the Japanese as sex slaves.

A little tuck and pluck and some bad lighting, and they could pass for females.
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Wild__
Wild__: I say the winner of the next war has keep Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus.

*world peace occurs*
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Oksunny
Oksunny: wildman, just Ukraine - not the Ukraine ))
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Canada.....The American Siberia.

Nice ring to it.

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Oksunny
Oksunny: In this video you can see how people who defended Maidan were shot by Putin's snipers went to Heaven for our freedom... We signed the assosiation with EU today. The price was so high
(Edited by Oksunny)
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Oksunny
(Post deleted by Oksunny 10 years ago)
dave3974
dave3974: the crimea has voted to stay Russian , good luck to them
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davidk14
davidk14: Oksunny..

I watched the entire video last night.

I wasn't able to respond last night. I had never seen anything like that before. I tried to understand why those people allowed themselves to be shot. It was shocking. Not so much the snipers...that is cowardly and takes a certain type of person to shoot unarmed civilians from rooftops.

Words I have none more to explain. Everyone needs to see this video....and watch the entire video.

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Oksunny
Oksunny: Dave,
Today Russians took over military base next to Evpatoriya (Estern Krym) without single shot. How? They surrounded kindergarden and school, and said to Ukrainian soldiers, that if the weapon would not be surrended, they would enter the premises with the kids...
Do you want to know how the Russians occupied a base today? Without a shot, although the commanding officer of the HQ is a Ukrainian patriot to the bone, although he was born and raised in Crimea... They were ready to die protecting the flag of their country.
The Russian soldiers surrounded the school and the kindergarten. They told the Ukrainian soldiers that if they didn't surrender - they would go inside and attack the children...
Natasha was hysterical, she never, NEVER wished anyone evil. But today, she did... She wished that they all endure what she endured today. And what the fathers of these children endured... who took the oath... but who also treasure their children's lives more than anything...
I am crying right now...
She hates the Russians. All those, who are rubbing their hands with satisfaction, who can't wait to take Crimea away...
And the fathers... The fathers silently put their weapons down...
And the Russian TV will say that Crimea was taken "without a droplet of blood..."
(Edited by Oksunny)
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: Is anyone really buying this? Soldiers holding kindergarten schools hostage, and Russians rubbing their hands with satisfaction?

I mean, Russia shouldn't be there, but come on- this is clearly propaganda. Do you have ANY source sunny? ANY at all? I'll take a Ukraine source if you want- I can't find anything to verify what you're saying...
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Lipton, did you see the video she posted half way down this page?

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(Edited by davidk14)
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: I have a child in the room, so I cannot currently watch it, no.
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Regarding this conversation, watch the video. It was a very emotional video that I wanted to shut off but I did not. And good for you watching out for the children.

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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: Okay, kids in bed, I watched the video- and i have questions on the context;

What were these people doing? Were they approaching a military fortified position? If so, why? Where were they going and what was their intended goal in all of this? Was the military using bullets, or rubber bullets? Some people seemed to have been hurt without bleeding, while others are bleeding(which could be expected with non-lethal force)

I applaud the people who bravely went forward to collect the injured- that was incredibly brave and noble....but why are there a steady stream of people attempting to push forward?

I feel there's a side to this that we aren't being told...
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davidk14
davidk14: .


Lipton said:

Okay, kids in bed, I watched the video- and i have questions on the context;

David responds:

Good job.



Lipton continues:

What were these people doing? Were they approaching a military fortified position? If so, why? Where were they going and what was their intended goal in all of this? Was the military using bullets, or rubber bullets? Some people seemed to have been hurt without bleeding, while others are bleeding(which could be expected with non-lethal force)

David responds:

It seems, that they were protesters of some sort that were moving forward on a fortified position where the defenders were effectively using snipers, shooting unarmed civilians which were not a physical threat on the defenders. No use of non-lethal deterrents shown. No bean bags, gas, or other non lethal devices like water cannons were evident and the weapons on the roof seemed to be AK47’s.



Lipton continues:

I applaud the people who bravely went forward to collect the injured- that was incredibly brave and noble....but why are there a steady stream of people attempting to push forward?

I feel there's a side to this that we aren't being told...


David responds:

Lipton, I suspended my political debate regarding the reasons on why these protesters did what they did.

What they did was stick the finger in the air.

To advance into a killing zone…what the fuck were they thinking??? No weapons, no body armor…just advance with motorcycle helmets? Thin metal person protection was not working yet they moved forward anyway???

How about the rescuers. No ambulance crews, ambulances, fire brigades, just fellow protesters, dragging away the injured and dead. But what got me….more protesters took their place, and more were shot.

What would cause you or I besides acting for a family member, would we advance into a kill zone?

They did…..for a cause.

Hell, there are those that strap bombs on their bodies and blow themselves up for a cause.

Here in this video it seems, these protesters were making a statement.

Of course, that is if the video is accurate and true which seems reasonable to believe that it is.

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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>No bean bags, gas, or other non lethal devices like water cannons were evident and the weapons on the roof seemed to be AK47’s.

You're saying that, if a dozen people we're shot in the street, only 2 or 3 would show any sign of blood? And flimsy metal shields could deflect those kinds of rounds? You can clearly see a few times we're the bullets flick off the shield- if they were snipers, their bullets would go straight through...

And the fact is the images of the snipers were edited into the video- it wasn't shown on the scene, but clips were added later, in the editing room.

I'm not suggesting that it didn't happen- but you're taking alot of leaps of faith here...

If we cannot be certain of what was going on in the video, and I think there's plenty of evidence to doubt your assessment, then we should withhold any judgement until we get more information- who filmed that? It appeared to have an embeded reporter holding a camera near the end of the video. Where was this taking place, and what were they attempting to achieve? Way were they approaching the military over and over again, despite the fact that they were being fired on, and was there any fatalities? What kind of weapons were being used- all of these questions remain unanswered.

>>>But what got me….more protesters took their place, and more were shot.

I noticed that too- clearly theres more to the story than we are being told. I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe a dozen protesters threw themselves into gunfire just for the hell of it.

>>>Hell, there are those that strap bombs on their bodies and blow themselves up for a cause.

Exactly my point, though- we don't understand what their cause was, but perhaps they were attempting to threaten the military, so they responded. It was an outrageous use of force, but we clearly aren't seeing the entire picture here. Either the picture is lost in translation, or the people who edited the video did it in such a way to keep us in the dark.

In short, I suspect it's propaganda, made to have you sympathize with the Ukrainians.

A lot of what sunny has posted on here sounds suspect- the protesters have killed dozens of people in the last month, and have held hostages- but they are oddly silent on the subject of the protesters guilt, and depict the Russians as scheming and evil.

Consider the source, david

>>>Of course, that is if the video is accurate and true which seems reasonable to believe that it is.

Even following the video, without any extra baggage, a lot of left unclear on what is going on.

If you have any additional information that would make the incident any clearer, it would certainly help.
(Edited by LiptonCambell)
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LiptonCambell
(Post deleted by Oksunny 10 years ago)
Sqeez
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Lipton, there are those as well that do not believe this video was accurate either....



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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: ...wow...that was....wow..

Okay, so i dunno how long this will be on here, given they deleted my last post....

my last post actually FOUND more information on the subject- It took place on the days between Feb 19-21, and occured prior to the Russians invading Ukraine...I presented it, and it did confirm- those people were killed by police snipers. With the conflict with the sniping, it is unclear who started it, as a ceasefire had applied the day prior, but somehow it was ended and clearly got out of hand....the protesters were trying to occupy positions, and the police we're trying to drive them out, and there was some violence and arson involved on both sides....

Honestly, I do not understand why Sunny would delete that post....the prior, more speculative one seemed to me to be worse than the one presenting facts....again, furthering my suspicion of what they said....lets see if I can dig up the info, which this time I will be also sending to you via private message;

"Both sides blamed each other for igniting the deadly conflict on 20 February."

...

"A statement from the Presidential Administration of Ukraine stated that the protesters went on the offensive: “They are working in organised groups. They are using firearms, including sniper rifles. They are shooting to kill,” it said.[129] Lately it was approved by video.[130] Protesters accuse police of starting the conflict by throwing Molotov cocktails and improvised explosive devices at them."

(130 links to this http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3311775-strelba-na-ynstytutskoi-vydeokadry-podtverzhdauischye-fakt-yspolzovanyia-ohnestrelnoho-oruzhyia-aktyvystamy - i used google translate, and it seems to state that while they believe the government fired on both armed and unarmed protesters, there absolutely were protesters armed among them )

" At 09:25 protesters pushed the Berkut back to the October Palace[131] after security forces attempted to set fire to Kiev Conservatory which was being used as a field hospital for wounded protesters."

...

"Protesters claimed to have seen snipers on Instytutska Street opening fire on the most radical activists.[134] According to the medical staff in the makeshift hospital in Hotel Ukrayina snipers shot "directly at their heart, sometime through their back, sometime in front. And some of them were shot into coronary arteries""

...

"Euromaidan protesters marched on police with shields and molotov cocktails, and forced them to retreat, managing to seize back control of Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) and capture up to 67 police."

...

Radio Liberty published video footage of police special forces shooting protesters with Kalashnikov and sniper rifles.[146] Acting Interior Minister Vitaliy Zakharchenko announced that combat weapons had been provided to police, stating, "We signed relevant orders as part of the Antiterrorist Center's work: the law enforcement officials have been provided with combat weapons, and they will be used in line with the law on police," Zakharchenko said in an address to the nation."[147] His ministry's website said riot police had the right to use their weapons to free hostages being held by protesters.[148] The ministry further stated a sniper had injured 20 of its police officers

(I believe this is the videos origin- I had to translate the webpage, but it says that the protesters were attempted to reclaim land they lost in the fighting)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution#Raid_on_Party_of_Regions_office_and_police_retaliation
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: Personally, I find it very revealing that Sunny wants you to stay in the dark, and not see the whole picture....
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Oksunny
Oksunny: And I don't need Wikipedia to describe the events. I watched everything online and cried as my friends and the relatives of my friends were there.
So, Putin ordered to Yanukovich to clear up the Maidan.
Police set on fire the Trade Union building in which there were a lot of injured people. Police justified their actions by stating they were conducting operations in an anti-terror campaign. The Underground was stopped by the Government, so no help could arrive. Ambulances were stopped by the police so that they couldn't give the first aid.
Police special forces started to shoot protesters with Kalashnikov and sniper rifles at 11 am and finished at 18:00 pm. It was a nightmare...
More than 100 people were shot and more than 500 were wounded on the cental Square of the capital of Ukraine on the 20th of February. Among them: journalists, teachers, students, workers, priests, pensioners, engineers... The youngest protester was 17 and the oldest one 83. We call them Heaven Hundred
On the next day Yanukovich ran away to Russia and asked Putin to help him... Putin agreed and introduce his troops into the Crimea without a declaration of war... How far will he go?? No one knows...
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>Putin ordered to Yanukovich to clear up the Maidan.

Gotta source? Cause this is all sounding like propaganda.
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Here is a very informative article on the Ukraine and surrounding areas. A very good read...

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21597974-can-ukraine-find-any-leaders-who-will-live-up-aspirations-its-battered-victorious
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dave3974
dave3974: Another good article in the sunday press [uk] about the Ukraine and the crazy attempt by our government to res start the cold war

Take Mrs Hillary Clinton, next President of the United States and former chief of American foreign policy. She has directly compared Russia’s Vladimir Putin to Hitler. And she has compared events in Crimea to the Czech crisis of 1938.
Dozens of other politicians and grandiose journalists are currently doing the same.
It’s the one thing they think they know about history – that Britain’s pathetic Neville Chamberlain didn’t stand up to evil Adolf Hitler in 1938 at Munich over Czechoslovakia, so making Hitler believe that he could take over the world. And that the brave Winston Churchill then saved the world.
Almost no part of this legend is true. Even those bits that are true are misleading, with one exception. Hitler was certainly evil. But so was Stalin, the communist mass-murderer who ended up as our main ally in the fight against Hitler.
If we had gone to war to save Czechoslovakia in 1938, we would have been beaten. We had no proper army. Nor did the USA, whose army at that time was about the same size as Portugal’s.
When we later went to war to ‘save’ Poland, we didn’t in fact save it at all, leaving it to be bombed, starved and massacred by Hitler, carved up between Germany and the USSR and later swallowed whole by Stalin. And we were beaten – just not actually invaded.
Churchill was indeed a great man, but his achievement was to secure our bare survival, which came at the desperate cost of our national wealth and our empire. Later in the war, Churchill appeased Stalin by giving him the whole of Poland and Eastern Europe. Just like Chamberlain at Munich seven years before, he had no choice. The Yalta conference, which finalised these arrangements, was as disgracefully self-interested as Munich.
Yet the silly, half-educated politicians of today still like to pose as tough guys with the following formula, addressed to anyone who suggests that Russia might have a case over Ukraine and Crimea.
It goes: ‘Putin is Hitler. You are Neville Chamberlain. I am Winston Churchill – hear me roar.’
Apart from knowing nothing about European history, and apart from their bone-headed inability to distinguish Christian Russia from the communist USSR, these people also don’t understand what is going on in Ukraine.
It never occurs to them that Russia has good historical reasons to fear its neighbours. It never crosses their mind that the borders drawn by the victorious West in 1992, like those drawn at Versailles in 1919, are an unsustainable, unjust mistake.
They never ask why Britain (or the USA) should be hostile to Russia, or what the quarrel between us actually is. What is it to us whose flag flies over Sevastopol? Yet it matters greatly to those who live there.
They cast every Russian action as evil, and every Ukrainian action as saintly. The world is not like that.
I hated the old USSR as an evil empire. But, having lived in Moscow, I feel a strong affection for post-communist Russia and count Russians as good friends. That does not make me an apologist for Mr Putin. I have repeatedly condemned him for his suppression of opposition and the many evil things done by his state. I can see his faults and do not pretend they do not exist.
But the warmongers are selectively blind. Hardly any British news media have mentioned an event in Kiev last week. A group of five louts, one of them an MP from the thuggish, racialist ‘Svoboda’ party, forced their way into the office of Oleksandr Panteleymonov, chief of the main Ukrainian TV station. There they physically attacked him and shouted anti-Russian racial abuse at him.
The MP involved is a member of the Ukrainian Parliament’s committee on ‘Freedom of Speech’. And the louts were so proud of what they did that they filmed it and posted it on the internet.
These people are supposed to be our allies and friends.
On their behalf, our Prime Minister is puffing himself up like a bullfrog, and busily creating a new Cold War that will benefit nobody except spies and weapons-makers, for a cause he doesn’t understand and can’t explain.
If this is the kind of statesman it produces, it strikes me that Eton can’t be such a good school after all.
(Edited by dave3974)
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