Support Ukraine in its fight for European Union! (Page 5)
dave3974: Warmongers who’ve failed (so far) to get us to invade Russia really do need to turn their attention to Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
He has all the qualifications for villainy – his jails are crammed with journalists, his opponents are subjected to evidence-free show-trials and locked up for years, and he ‘kills his “own people”’ when they protest against him.
There’s more. The country is fantastically corrupt. He foments strife in neighbouring nations. His troops have illegally occupied Northern Cyprus for 40 years and show no sign of going.
Last week he tried to shut down Twitter in an outburst of laughable megalomania. He even has a moustache.
So why no sanctions, no squeaky, righteous denunciations by William Hague? Er, Turkey is a member of Nato and a fully paid-up member of the Globalist club. So it can do what Russia can’t.
Turkey imprisons far more journalists than Russia, holds political show trials, is aggressive to its neighbour Syria, fomenting rebellion there, kills anti-government demonstrators, is spectacularly corrupt, and has an increasingly autocratic head of government
(Edited by dave3974)
Oksunny: Dave,read the real story about typical Russian soldiers. If you need, all the documents can be provided.
Six Russian military personnel in a state of extreme intoxication were marauding in the officers’ dormitory [in Novofedorivka, Crimea]. They broke down the doors to a room and started to beat a Ukrainian officer, inquiring where his wife was, threatening to rape her in front of him. [The officer's wife and family had already shipped out of Crimea to mainland Ukraine and he was about to follow]. When the Ukrainian officer told them that his wife had left for Odesa they told the officer to get down on his knees so they could photograph themselves with him on their telephones. When the officer’s friend, Captain Ermolenko, refused to obey, the group of Russian soldiers started to beat him savagely. Two of the Russians openly stole some of his property. When he protested, Junior Sergeant Zaicev pressed a gun to Karachevskyy and cold bloodedly shot him twice at point blank range. The group of Russian soldiers took his body and property from the scene of the crime and disappeared in a GAZ-66 vehicle in an unknown direction.
“We confirm the death of a Ukrainian officer in the village of Novofedorivka in Crimea,” the Ministry of Defence’s press service told Interfax-Ukraine.
OCD_OCD: Drunk Russian military is an oxymoron. They stay that way most of the time. One of our friends is ex-Russian military. It's not uncommon for most eastern European soldiers to be drunk, sadly.
dave3974: more propaganda , if the Russian were that bad hundreds would be dead --------look how many your own police shot in the recent demos. YOU are trying to make capital out of one casualty.
To evidence how barbaric the ukranians are I note that anyone wanting to be free of the country is being threatened with 10 years in prision.
In the more civilised uk many scottish people wish to be free of England -they are having a vote on the issue[ like the Russians did ] and all will respect the result .
ghostgeek: The situation in the Ukraine is not to be made light of. It could yet end all our happy comfortable lives. Look at the origins of the First World War and worry.
dave3974: I am not making light of it. The Ukraine crisis, set off by aggressive ‘western’ intervention in that cockpit region, is still churning away, just below the surface.
But how should we read it? I think most recent developments confirm my view that Ukraine is an invented state, which came into existence because of the temporary (and predictably temporary) absence of Russian power rather than because it had the real components of a country – a common unifying language and culture (definitely absent) an economy ( never present in the first place) , viable defensible frontiers bearing some relation to its physical existence (not so much absent as actually negative) , the rule of law (absent) , the ability to defend itself against internal and external physical threats (absent) . Ukraine is a sort of John Major among countries. Just as Mr Major became Prime Minister because he wasn’t Margaret Thatcher, and stayed Prime Minister because he wasn’t Neil Kinnock, Ukraine became and remained a country not because of any positive qualities of its own, but because of the negative qualities of others. (For US readers, think of Gerald R. Ford, who became Vice-President because he was not Spiro T. Agnew, and President because he was not Richard M.Nixon) . In both cases, it was found that *not* being someone was not an adequate qualification for being somebody. And *not* being stifled by a feeble Russia in 1991-2 was not a sufficient qualification for sustaining an independent existence in 2014.
Had Ukraine been a true sovereign state, the removal of Crimea by Russia would have been inconceivable. The danger of war would have been far too great for Russia to have risked it. As it was, the action was completed with amazing ease, speed and efficiency, and those who claim they disapproved of it have implicitly admitted that it is irreversible. If they really believed that Crimea belonged in Ukraine, or that Ukraine exercised real sovereignty, they would not have behaved in this way. As it is, they plainly regard Ukraine as a playground, in which they can intervene at will. They only become sensitive about its supposed inviolability when a bigger boy turns up in the sandpit, knocks over their sandcastles, and kicks sand in their faces.
In fact, if they really believed that Ukraine was a proper country, the ‘West’ would never have intervened in it in the first place. I’ve tried by various analogues (mainly directed at Americans)to explain why the behaviour of the ‘West’ was so astonishing and outrageous. But various literal-minded people, seeking an exact similarity, and indeed a direct connection with today’s reality ( I *know* Quebec isn’t really planning a treaty with Moscow. I *know* Britain has made it clear it is ready to accept Scottish independence)rather than the rough parallel I was trying to make, missed the point.
(Edited by dave3974)
ghostgeek: The news from that part of the world wasn't good today. Talk of using force to remove protesters. You can almost hear the Russian tanks getting into gear.
ghostgeek: I'm actually being rather selfish here. Just thinking of myself. We mustn't forget though that not everybody in Ukraine wants to bond with Russia.
Oksunny: Why don't you write , Dave, that to evidence how barbaric the Russians are, please, note that anyone wanting to be free of Russia in the Crimea is being threatened with 15 years in prision? And Chechnia was drowned in blood by Putin.
Oksunny: If the Scots want to be free of England, they can ask Putin to help them and tomorrow Putin and his troops will be in your country to help the Scots to be free and to become a part of Russia. Not all the Scots want to be a part of Russia? It's not a problem. Putin will send some people, who will shout - Russia , help us to be free!!!
LiptonCambell: Alot of what Sunny says reminds me of the anti-flag 'song' "Anatomy Of Your Enemy", which gives a step by step list on how to create an enemy and go to war.
"Second step: be sure the enemy you have chosen is nothing like you. Find obvious differences like race, language, religion, dietary habits fashion. Emphasize that their soldiers are not doing a job, they are heartless murderers who enjoy killing!"
"Fifth step: show this enemy in actions that seem strange, militant, or different. Always portray the enemy as non-human, evil, a killing machine."
"Seventh step: Use nationalistic and/or religious symbols and rhetoric to define all actions. This can be achieved by slogans such as "freedom loving people versus those who hate freedom."
"Ninth step: Design propaganda to show that your soldiers have feelings, hopes, families, and loved ones.
Make it clear that your soldiers are doing a duty; they do not want or like to kill."
All of the above is true for Sunny- they are insistent that we view Russians as sub-human, that they love murder, and that they are evil. It's propaganda, plain and simple.
ghostgeek: I think the Ukraine shows that when nations split apart the results are rarely amicable. Scotland could run into similar problems if it becomes independent. Islanders from Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles have launched a campaign to gain more powers after the September 18 vote, whatever the result. This could include control of the sea bed around the islands. It will be interesting to see how the Scots react to this. Not very favourably is my expectation.
Oksunny: You are right, Lipton. Russians are enemies for us now. They came to our land and kill our people.
Ghost, it's so important to understand, that Ukrainian nation doesn't want to split apart. But Putin wants the world to think so. He sends Russians to Ukraine to provoke conflicts. Neither in the Crimea, nor in other part of Ukraine people didn't want to join Russia. The real results of plebicite in the Crimea show that only about 25% of people in the Crimea would like to join Russia. People in the Crimea are shocked now, some of them lost their flats and houses, they have to change their passports now or to go away from the Crimea.
LiptonCambell: >>>You are right, Lipton. Russians are enemies for us now. They came to our land and kill our people.
Yes. And a few months ago, you were calling for Westerners to do the same.
It's sad what's happening to Ukraine and the Ukraine people. But you are a despicable person, who calls for nations to get involved in your nations civil war, then demonizes the nation that will. As far as I'm concerned, the blood is on your hands- and no amount of propaganda to distract people of your own involvement will change that.
Wait a sec...
The government that was overthrown was a Russian leaning regime. However, the people wanted to be part of the EU. That government was overthrown BECAUSE it was was a Russian buddy. The new government was not pro-Russia and Putin responded.
Oksunny: Why do you understand this, David, why do a lot of Canadians and Americans understand this, but neither Lipton nor Dave understand this. Or they are just pretending?
Oksunny: Now our government takes steps to stop Putin and to stabilize the situation in the country. People support this government as much as they can. Our prime-minister is doing his best to stop the stagnation and to start new projects. Too many people gave their lives only for a chance to change the situation in Ukraine