Petition: Wire should Un-Ban Colin (Page 2)

Wireclub Admin: Firststep, you are changing the narrative of what happened to support your point of view.

Colin's account was closed because he disagrees with our ToS and not because he complained about anything. Trying to frame this in any other way is disingenuous.

I understand that you are frustrated about this situation, and honestly so am I, but there isn't much more I can do about it. Both you and Colin have unrealistic expectations of the level of involvement Wireclub (and websites in general) should have with user generated content.

Clearly the ToS is meant to protect both our users by explaining what is acceptable use of our service, and to protect Wireclub from liability because otherwise it would be impossible to run a website of any sort. Truth is that without those protections most websites would be simply too risky to exist.

cowpoker: Feels like this is debate is starting to go round in circles. May I sum up before we all get dizzy?

1) Nobody disputes that Colin has put up with a lot of bullying for quite a long time, right? Wire Admin / Mod point of view is that he should have reported each incident to be dealt with at the time instead of letting it build up. Colin’s point of view is that he was being patient until it just went too far. Slight difference in approach, but no biggie.

2) Colin complained about the bullying, lack of urgency dealing with the offending posts, lack of repercussions for the bully, lack of moderators moderating the situation. Perfectly valid perceptions for a victim of bullying. Wire did delete the posts, didn’t have enough evidence of malicious intent to ban anybody, and has neither the manpower nor the mandate to be wiping everybody’s arses for them. Realistic necessity for operators of a website. Some divergence, but still easy enough to see both sides so far.

3) Wire deleted the complaints, believing the issue to have been dealt with and satisfactorily resolved. Colin took this as an attempt to muzzle him, invalidate his complaints, sweep the issues under the carpet. Repeated posting of complaints could be seen as stubborn refusal to accept wire’s limitations, and an unnecessary disturbance of the peace. Repeated deletion of complaints could be seen as censorship, and silencing of dissenters. By now both sides are probably misreading the situation and reacting badly.

4) Colin is banned. The ban appears to be for pointing out that mods are failing to use their discretionary powers to uphold the terms of service, specifically the term about bullying not being tolerated. The ban is actually for not accepting the terms of service, specifically the term where everything is at the discretion of the mods, including upholding the other terms of service such as bullying not being tolerated. Honestly, WTF?!

5) Colin can come back if he will be peaceful and adjust his expectations of the role of mods. Colin has ALWAYS been peaceful, and we’ve ALL recently adjusted our expectations of the role of mods. So we’re all good, right? Resolved. All that remains is to put Colin’s account back as it was and delete this thread and any evidence that any of this ever took place... although possibly only do the last bit if you want to repeat all of this with Firststep.

Wireclub Admin: I am inclined to agree with Cowpower, both regarding Colin side and ours - with the exception of why the threads were deleted.

Initially Colin created multiple duplicated threads about the issue. Since posting the same thread multiple times is a form of spam, we deleted all but the original which we left online because we respect his right to express himself. Colin get very upset about it because he thought we were trying to silence him and started creating even more threads, which were subsequentially deleted for the same reasons.

His original thread was only deleted later on when his account was closed because the conversation had become increasingly confrontational and counter-productive.

RUBY: ren if that was ne in Colin's place I sure wouldn't have reacted like he did
if my personal information was posted i sure wouldn't put it in evidence
would contact Admin or a mod to let it remove it
how he went with it was wrong

Wireclub Admin: Ren, you are living proof that I don't ban people that disagree with me, aren't you not?

cowpoker: My apologies, Admin, I do stand corrected. Although if you were to interpret "unnecessary disturbance of the peace" as inclusive of spamming, it should still read okay. I'm told I didn't get the extent of Colin's patience quite right either. Everybody's a critic!

Ruby, if I had been in Colin's place I'd have done it all differently too. Although probably equally wrong. That's people for you.. a never-ending variety of cock-ups. But that's a good thing. I'd much rather chat with him than have only others who think and talk exactly like myself, as I'm fairly sure they'd all be obnoxious.

Ren... sssshhhhhhh! I think you're right, but being right just isn't that important anymore. We've almost found a tentative kind of agreement here. Stop poking the bear!

So, really.. enough chitchat... where's Col already?

StarryStarryNight: @ admin

Let’s back up a bit. First of all, when Colin got banned, even he didn’t know why he got banned. No one informed him before or after the banning. All I know is that he was gone after posting some letters of complaints in the forums and those of us who had been following his complaints could only gather it was because of his demand for justice against the bullying he’s been complaining about.

It’s not my intention to change any narrative.

And Ruby’s earlier reply as to why he got banned - I can only gather from her post that he was banned because he was being stubborn and wouldn’t stop complaining and kept replacing his deleted threads with new ones.

And then came your reply about him disagreeing with the ToS being the reason why he got banned. Frankly, if there was a barrel of reasons that you could use, I’d call that scrapping the bottom of the barrel. He got banned because he disagreed with Wire’s use of discretionary powers in handling the bullying issues he brought up. That certainly saves Wire from having to justify the use or reserving the use of its discretionary powers, doesn’t it? And if that’s the case, there’s just no point in discussing anything, is there? Coz at the end of the day, you don’t have to justify anything. It’s your site.

I get it. I accept that it’s your power as the admin to do things at your own discretion around here. And I understand the need to protect this site from any liability and accountability in the legal courts. But there’s another court that we are all in, whether we like it or not. We will all be judged by others, either silently or vocally, from the action/decisions we make or fail to make. And especially so, when you are someone in a position of power.

A site is nothing without its members. And if I was in your shoes, I’d want to have not just quantity, but quality members. So why not use your discretionary powers and re-open Colin’s account. He deserves to be reinstated. And you deserve to be seen as the bigger person with a heart, someone who promotes justice and not just a powerful admin.

Plus you’ll get a free glass of milk from cow…while stocks last…and if you promise to be good, of course *wink*

cowpoker: There ain't no such thing as a free glass of milk.

Wireclub Admin: Absolutely Firststep. Is anyone here in contact with Colin? If so please ask him to contact me at rod@wireclub.com so we can coordinate bringing his account back online

StarryStarryNight: @ cow - I stand corrected. Milk, like respect, has to be earned.

@ admin

I do appreciate the effort you've taken to listen and allow us to express our grievance. Your offer to reinstate Colin is a commendable gesture and I'd like to thank you

I would love for Colin to come back and have informed him of the option of having his account re-activated, but it will ultimately be Colin’s decision if he wishes to return. So, we'll see what he decides.

Thanks again.

RUBY: And the milk?

orkanen: Thank you Rod.

near50ohoh: note to WIRECLUB ADMIN AND MODS
Not to stir the pot or to say this refers specifically about this particular group or situation , but I think we need to remember that not everyone has the same skillset in solving problems and dealing with interpersonal situations. Perhaps that is where the discretion needs to be used. Ppl are buggers to deal with. When they get upset that only gets worse.

cowpoker: The milk, as promised, and so fresh it's still steaming. Couldn't find a glass though, so you'll have to make do with a mug.

Now if Colin makes fools of us by being too proud to return after we just fought for him, I'll boot him up the arse myself. Please don't ban me for bullying him until I've got at least two shots in.. one on Firststep's behalf as well.

StarryStarryNight: Colin has requested for me to post a message on his behalf. So, here is the message which he had written...

************

This is Colin. I'd first of all like to express my heartfelt gratitude to those few, but courageous people who spoke on my behalf. I'm deeply touched. Thank you.


@ Admin


My dilemma is now this: do I return to Wireclub only to continue from where I left off, with my threads subject to merciless hooliganism and my character vulnerable to defamation?


It's not obvious to me that anything has been done to ameliorate the deplorable state of affairs which led me to protest in the first place.


I'd like it to be known that I am not a troublemaker and I resent being portrayed as such. As my friends will surely attest, my passion is learning. Fighting holds no attraction to me.


Apart from the perennial problem of vandalism, or what you might call thread-crapping, in all its various forms, Wireclub has provided an excellent vehicle for me to pursue my love of learning. The research I've done while constructing several threads, mainly in the domain of philosophy and science, has significantly strengthened my understanding of the subject matter. Insight from other posters is greatly appreciated, and I'd like to reiterate that contrary opinions are more than welcome, as long as they are presented in a civil manner. Like everyone else, I am doubtless in possession of countless erroneous beliefs, and I owe a sincere debt of gratitude to anyone who corrects me, or at least gives me cause to re-evaluate the beliefs I presently hold. If I'm wrong, as I undoubtedly am on many things, I'd like to know about it.


With such a vast membership, surely there are many thoughtful people out there who, like myself, would enjoy educational discussions on sensible topics, discussions through which we can learn from each other and improve ourselves without fear of harassment.


This is what I would like from Wireclub. I presume many other people would like the same. This would surely be beneficial to Wireclub too, but we need some form of protection. Why devote time and energy to building a wall, knowing it's likely to be defaced with graffiti by those whose proclivities incline them towards, or whose talents limit them to, destruction rather than construction?


The obvious solution seems to me simply to empower the creator of a thread with the options firstly, to remove offensive messages post hoc, and secondly, to preemptively block known malefactors, rendering them unable to post at all. Would this be problematic in a technical sense or any other sense? As for freedom of speech, I condone the sentiments you expressed yourself on the matter - I'd rather have courtesy and mutual respect. If the animals want to bray, let them do it somewhere else.


You might consider, for example, implementing the above policy only in sections of the forums where a certain level of decorum is to be expected (Science, Philosophy, Religion, etc), while other areas, notably Off Topic, could be preserved as a free-for-all, anything-goes urban dockside frequented by sailors, muggers, women of the night, grandiloquent pigs, cutthroats, and the occasional hapless tourist. It's clear, I think, that certain members would embrace restrictive measures, whereas others prefer a more permissive climate.


Wireclub does have some wonderful features and I believe the site has enormous potential for development so long as the welfare, security and dignity of her users can be protected. I would like to return and I would like to contribute to the site in a positive way, but I'd hate to think that all the recent upheaval, as well as the efforts of myself and my friends, has been in vain.


Can anything be done?


Sincerely

near50ohoh: WIRECLUB ADMIN AND MODS
I think COLIN has good suggestions. Other sites have groups and mods for each group but wc doesn't. So it is fair to ask that we police our own threads instead. Since the mods can't be every where and You obviously need to put them where there is a high traffic. If the OP could have an edit key for the whole thread or be able to ban posters who get out of line so they can't follow the thread anymore. That would solve the issue.

RUBY: Reason I'm the only forum mod is
cause I've been on forums for 7 years and no other mod knows more than I do about forums and users
that optiion was on forums where every member could remove the post
was taken off cause many would remove for no reason just cause they didn't like the user
now as a forum mod i say no to that option
and not true that a mod isn't on every forum cause i am
and i also have Owen on help forum
so i feel not necessary to put any other options on forums

cowpoker: There might be a middle ground. It's something that can be discussed after Colin gets back here, perhaps? Remember, that milk wasn't free.

Oh, and regarding my last post about bullying him with a good old fashioned arse-kicking.. as he has been whispering in my ear about preferring the term 'vandalism' to 'bullying', that threat is hereby amended to vandalising him. I don't believe that's an official banning offense after all.

Milk, Col?

duncan124:
If someone with three names we can't mention wants a private thread then he should start his own web page, there are free ones and ones he could pay for himself.

If he wants censorship in the public forums then he got it, vanity publishing web pages that away--------------------->

Mr C forgets people have found his vain posts offensive when he did not notice and not everyone who wants him to carry on are his friends.

cowpoker: How do you forget something you didn't actually notice in the first place?