Religion (Page 6)

Zanjan: On the subject of letting go:

When we discuss religion, we talk about God. Meanwhile, there are religions that worship no deity. I've seen members of those religions get really irked that we talk about God as if non-believers aren't even in the room.

Yeah, that happens because all mainstream religions do worship God; believers are the majority. So, what do non-believers expect from us? How do they want us to adjust our conversation to suit them? Wouldn't it be a lot easier simply to not take offense?

tularcitas: Does it really matter what anyone's belief system or lack of one is if it helps them on their live's paths....just as long as they don't negatively impact themselves or others with it? I think most people just quietly go thru life practicing/believing or non-practicing/non-believing without any adverse affects. We must keep in mind that the negativity associated with such sells news and a non-discriminating viewer will often see nothing but negativity associated with a belief or lack of one.

Zanjan: "if it helps them on their live's paths.."

How would WE be able to judge if it's helping them or not? Either it matters to us or it doesn't. If it matters, then we need to address why. I certainly believe in the old "live and let live" principle; meanwhile, I know for a fact that ignorance never helps - it breeds fear.

If a religious person isn't walking with upright conduct, their beliefs clearly mean little to them, much less to outsiders. Who's to blame for it? Certainly not the religion - it doesn't act on behalf of the individual. Same for non-believers; no group acts on their behalf.

We have to decide how wrong is wrong. If it's wrong under principle, that's sticky because principles differ; but, if it's wrong under the law, we should know what to do. When a person breaks the law, we report them, don't we? What happens if we don't?

I've heard of outsiders reporting a religious member's wrong-doings to that religion's authorities. Doesn't happen often but I think it's a good idea. After all, religions do have their own courts of law to deal with internal matters. Unlike civil law, those ARE based on principle.

Thus, I think it helps to know what other religions' principles are, and hold said members accountable to them.

Usually, religious law and civil law meet on common ground - double whammy.

Cenababy: Let's add most laws, civil came from long ago from Gods laws . How else were they taught...hint

Zanjan: Yeah, that's true. Civil law is so complex these days with all it's different branches and specialties, one can't keep up with all of them. That's why one pays a lawyer. Even so, that system rules that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Fortunately, religion is not so harsh - before judging, it educates to make sure there's not going to be an excuse for a second offense. At no time does a religious person need someone to speak for them, as lawyers do. Unlike civil law, we can't incriminate ourselves by words, only by actions.

Zanjan: So, we see the critical importance of religion existing in society - both to educate, train and help to create order. We have some very bold proof what happens when religion is removed from society. No good has ever come of that.

Society requires an agent to balance good and evil. When people don't support said agent, it all goes down the tubes. We aren't required to belong to a religion to support its work; however, we can't support its work if we don't see sameness of belief and the good that it's doing.

Cenababy: ZAN exactly. Example turn on the news!

Zanjan: This is the reason I became one of the founding members of Multi-Faith in my region. I saw real need for religious folks to work together; and, I KNEW there was a way. I couldn't keep that to myself......it truly mattered to me.

Many loved the idea but didn't know where to begin; that's ok because that love would show them where.

We procured official representatives of 12 different religions - some believers in God, some not. We met to get to know each other and what principles were important to each of them. It wasn't long until we discovered that some of those reps were there for the wrong reasons, their aims weren't true.

Other members expressed concern; I advised them not to worry - those individuals wont be able to keep up and will quickly drift away without us lifting a finger. Then we can replace them with better reps. That's exactly what happened, faster than we thought. We ended up with the most amazing people; together, we accomplished what no one else before was able to do. NOBODY.

The secret - finding the samenesses in our beliefs, principles, loves and aims. Nothing can be accomplished when focusing on differences. This is what we must teach our children - all children.

Nicotina:
"You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion."

Zanjan: In all my life, I've never seen anyone outside of religion consistently stick to the morals they profess to have. That's because there's no incentive to remain solid under pressure and temptation.

What they claim as morals are merely rules that are common laws - they don't love these laws, they merely hold to them because they fear getting caught and ending up in jail.

If you ask them to list their morals, some wont give you anything except the golden rule; others will provide a very short, ancient list because they can't think of any new ones. I've seen atheists provide the 10 commandments, then break every one of them. What one thinks is right for others isn't necessarily what they do themselves.

We all have some degree of empathy, even babies and gophers do. Those who have none at all are "amoral", but that's not a problem with belief - it's a physical brain glitch, a birth defect.

Nicotina: Zanjan, I take it you are unable to see the bias in your statements. Time after time you state that only those who share the same belief in a god as you are the only moral ones.
If you are unable to see that many people, from different races, creeds, colours, religions have morals and stick to them as best they can then you are missing out on the best of humanity.
We all falter at some time & I can guarantee that you also have broken at least one law or rule in your life since you became religious.

If you choose that being right about your religion is of utmost importance, then please feel free to make that assumption for yourself and continue on in life.
As for me, I choose to be happy.

Zanjan: Nicotina: "you state that only those who share the same belief in a god as you are the only moral ones."

I've never said that. Please provide a quote.

What I've said is those without religion are ALL inconsistent with their morals; that means they're unreliable. This is a proven fact and I've never indicated or even implied that had anything to do with race, gender, culture or creed.

Nevertheless, I welcome anyone to provide the name of the non-religious one who's the miraculous exception. It's simply way, way easier to find a person of sterling integrity in religion. I know a lot of them.

"I take it you are unable to see the bias in your statements"

My only bias is against non-learners.

Zanjan: "We all falter at some time"

Everyone falters when they're learning a thing because IT'S NEW to them. They don't falter once they've learned it.

Generally, we've learned to feed ourselves and tie our shoes by 10 years old; there's something amiss with anyone who hasn't. The same is true for basic societal rules and laws, ie., not lying, cheating, stealing, torturing etc.

At 10 years old, anywhere on earth, these lessons are NOT new to the individual yet they're still doing some fine tuning on the art of keeping a clean record. If they fail, they continue failing and no intervention works. Each has their own pace - that is, even with good intentions, some fail earlier in the game and never get past a specific point.

However, there's a small window of opportunity for the slow and crippled learners; that gradually shrinks and closes by age 30 at the latest.

" I can guarantee that you also have broken at least one law or rule in your life since you became religious."

Then surely you can name that law/rule. What is it? Can you determine whether or not I knew it was a law/rule at the time or, doesn't that matter to you?

If it does, let me remind you that there are ways to rectify the wrong without delay; and, where a wrong can't be rectified, there are pre-determined ways to make up for it. Once performed, the record is wiped clean and stays clean. Where do you find that happening outside of religion?

Nicotina: As I already stated, I choose to be happy.

Zanjan: I choose to leave a better world behind me than the one I came into.

Tatrasu 2: i think what people miss in life is that to be our best person,,we do not require any outside sources to alter daily our patterns,where we find inspiration and mentorship can reside in many places if we seek it out, a great misunderstanding is that the belief in a God enacts a spiritual high,,it is not the belief in an entity or system of things but the conscious will to seek out purity and love,,if every person who believes in a God or diety and all are spiritual that would mean all gods are returning the same love?
its not gods, priests or any system that provides this,its resides in unconditional love
even christians who seek purity still have difficulty in seperating love from an image of what is said to represent love,,sympathetic harmonic resonance exists for all with or without a belief system

Zanjan: The question is, how does one know that they're the best person they can be? I mean, how can they see their own potential when "potential" means something that's latent and hidden?

Nobody knows how to play a guitar until they learn - if they were never curious enough to pick one up, never practiced, never pushed themselves and persevered, how could they take joy in budding skill or know the extent of their own talent?

We each decide what we want to learn. Whatever that is, there are degrees of everything. This is exactly true of spirituality.

A speck of kindness isn't the same thing as a huge helping of it. There are those who have compassion only for some, not others. I can't begin to count how many people frantically go 'round and 'round in circles chasing what they can't reach. This is because they've chosen not to learn something.

Mundane life isn't the vehicle for that, self-help books aren't the solutions for that; neither can the wise old woman of reknown give you an answer that will unveil your potential. Religion is the school for development of spiritual potential. Is the person who went to school equal in knowledge with the person who didn't?

If a sage were to tell you that happiness is not pursued or discovered - it's realized; and that unconditional love is an intelligence, not a feeling, would you suddenly know it? No, it's through practice, practice practice........the school master will show you how to begin.

Zanjan: Tatrasu: "......if every person who believes in a God or diety and all are spiritual that would mean all gods are returning the same love? "

I don't understand what you're saying in that question. Perhaps we can draw out some clarity.

That we are all spiritual beings means our *essence* has a spiritual nature. Every human has a soul and, our soul isn't made of a physical substance.

The rock has a mineral spirit; plants have a vegetable spirit, the animal has an animal spirit. WE exist in a different realm (kingdom), much more complex. Our souls are endowed with TWO spirits - the spirit of the human nature and the spirit of the nature of "Man". The latter is latent.

God, the Creator, intended for us to transition from our state at birth to maturity, our true birth day. In other words, there's a larval state (furious consumption), then the cocoon (sleeping like the dead), then the break out into a beautiful winged creature (flying).

So, if one doesn't love God, that one is unable to receive God's love. There's no connection, no assistance, no progression. When you unplug, there's no power.

Zanjan: In short, if one religion worships God and another religion doesn't - how are these two even comparable in what they produce??

sisiblackdog: common interest survival

Cenababy: One falls short

Zanjan: ALL religions have the same, basic interests - growing their organization, expanding membership, establishing distinction, gaining influence. While they all want to have an impact on society, their aims might be somewhat different.

Thus, all religious organizations are in different states of mind, age and experience. Like people, we can always find one smarter or faster, bigger or stronger etc. That's the competitive view.

The weaker one deals with its shortcomings by trying to cover that weakness; it will take a combative position because it sees itself as fighting for its life. Classic. Never works though. That's jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

However, if we change our view, abandoning differences and embracing only the samenesses - same truths, same beliefs - we have common ground. If we claim to work towards the greater good of society, we have to work together.

When we take self -interest out of the equation, we lighten the load so the whole field of religion can stay afloat. In my opinion, the first who should set that example are those who are serving the Cause of God.

Cenababy: San I don't think that will happen. There are just to many differences and it isn't "the religion" it is to be about God, he is not religion but a way of life. Sadly, people make it about themselves and/or a cause, boy are they lost. For Christians it is about Jesus, always will be, if one is truly Christian they will never conform to another way of life, the hacks and violent ones sadly are doing more harm than good, this is not Christian by any stretch likewise a Christian cannot embrace another teaching.

Cenababy: *zan

Zanjan: If it's all about God, shouldn't one embrace love? God is Love. If a God-believer belongs to a different religion than another God-believer, how could either of these individuals be at odds with each other?

God is ONE teaching; truthfulness is ONE teaching; kindness is ONE teaching, etc. That IS the way of life. There is no spiritual life without honouring all of those identical principles.

I could list at least 40 more principles and a bunch of dynamics that ALL the religions of God share as the same teaching. In fact, there's so little new in the old religions, it seems the only difference is cultural, created mostly by men. Spiritual laws never change, just the social ones.

How can a Christian wiggle out of that???

Yes, things will change. God intended it to change and said that it would. How can we not believe God's Words?