The is NO free will. we are prods of out envio. (Page 3)

Icy_Uranus: It relates directly. I'm just trying to understand what you believe since you claim there is no freedom of choice.

XFixYourBrainX: Your just like lipton, your such a moron! Dont put words in my mouth, and twist what I say.

Icy_Uranus: You put the words there. I'm just asking you to clarify, but instead you rather insult people.

XFixYourBrainX: Obviously I have insulted you, you dont have to state it again anyone can read it lol

XFixYourBrainX: Dont put words in my mouth.

Icy_Uranus: Regardless, I'm not worried what you call me. I just think its pathetic that this is how you debate your point. With an insult. It shows ignorance. You really don't know what your talking about so you try to prove your point with an insult.

Icy_Uranus: I didn't put words in your mouth, you put them there. I gave an example which you might be able to relate to, in order to debate my side. Its not my fault that my point has left you unable to answer back without resorting to name calling.

XFixYourBrainX: Omg your a moron, can you just not type anymore, seriously, because I have litterally just gotten a bit dumber from reading your crap.

Icy_Uranus: Thank you for proving my point that you really don't know what you are talking about. If you had anything intelligent to say you would say it. But instead you are trying to make out that I'm less intelligent then you, as if somehow you think this magically nullifies everything I say and makes your argument correct.

XFixYourBrainX: Wow im not going to sit here again argue with you, you really are dumb, do you see or hear what you say sometimes man your rediculous, if you cant take an insult then get the hell out dont cry about it like a %$&#h

Icy_Uranus: Sorry for thinking this was a thread dedicated to discussing whether we have free will or not. I didn't realise this was the insult thread.

But is this all you got? Your insults are even more pathetic then your argument about freedom of choice.

XFixYourBrainX: "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

-Albert Einstein

Good luck with being a moron.

Icy_Uranus: Wow. Quoting Albert Einstein now to prove you have "a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage". I'm sure when he said that quote he wasn't talking about you. He was a man who stood by his opinion, not one who ran away screaming insults.

Your just trying to avoid answering my example because you can't. But I guess everyone who debate their point that is opposite to yours is a moron in your books. Matty and I debated our points without resorting to insults and we had differing opinions on this subject. I'm just having trouble understanding why you can't.

Move in the opposite direction. Thats fine with me. All it proves to me is that you just got a whooping in this debate.

deuce916: Yes Matty, the universe is governed by laws we are abiding by. No abiding - no existence.

Aryaa: I think ..you are right Matty to some extent...but there is a way out for free will and opportunity to choose.

FogofWar: "and when it comes to what you call decision making that decision is only made from your past experiances your enviorment put you in."

This is a concept of laying responsibility for your decisions on others. You have the free will to choose to allow your past to dictate you or not. No one is forcing you to abide by your past.



"to come to a conclusion on whether or not to dump the girl comes form past experiances. you feel a certian way because of how you were brought up."

Only when you let them Matty. Free will is the ability to have learned from your past; but not necessarily let your past dictate your decisions.



"we only know what we know, and do what we do because our envoirment allows us."

We only know what we know yes; but we decide what environment to live in. We are free to disagree with our environmental surroundings and seek new ones. I was born on the plains of Saskatchewan; yet I relocated to the mountains; because it was more peaceful for Me. I prefer to be surrounded by mountains and water; not plains. I did not let My environment and history dictate My life; and this is free will.




"if your born in a shanty town in mexico you think you have to choicse to become a millionare and do whateve ru want in life? maybe .0001% will be lucky enough to fal into an enviroemnt in that town that will allow growth and resrouces to become a millionare, but chances r small."

Chances are as big or small as you allow them to be. It is up to you, an individual to decide whether or not to let this limit you.

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.


Do you have any idea how many people have told Me I would never succeed at what I do in My life? Everyone has doubt; and everyone feels fear; it is what you do in the face of fear that defines your courage or cowardice; and it is what you do in the face of adversity that defines your character.

You can choose to allow your past and your environment to control you; or you can choose to control it. Either one you choose; you will accomplish it. The human mind is the most powerful force on this planet.

millions have risen from poverty to become millionaires.


"everyone is different because everyone experiances life differently. the enviroment plays differently on everyone."

And that defines their adversity....what defines their character is what they do from this.

I have seen people grow up in abusive; alcoholic families....and if what you say is the only truth Matty; then these people will become what history and their environment make them; abusive alcoholics; yet many are not. Many rise above and overcome.

FogofWar: "the fact is, if you were born again and experianced the exact same things at the exact same time as you have now youd be he exact same.

if your mom and dad had u in a completely different country, and brought you up teahcing you differnt ideals and morals youd be completly different."

Only if you let this be the case. You hold the power; only you...you can let the world dictate to you who you are; or you can tell the world who you are.



"you can only think about what youve seen, heard, and felt. you cannot controll what you see feel or hear."

Yes, you can only think about what you've seen, heard and felt....but you can decide to listen and feel what you like. I grew up in highschool surrounded by anti-war groups; and several people that protest our involvement abroad the world. I joined the Canadian Forces; and while it has cost Me many friends; it was a decision that I made; and did not allow My surroundings and My environment make for Me. This is free will.



"can you go touch the moon?"

Neil Armstrong will tell you yes.


"if you cant afford a plane ticket can you go see china?"

If you save up for a ticket, yes.


" if yo cant afford internet or school can you choose to learn new things?"

If you listen to the wise, yes.


"and even when you can do you choose whats taught and how its taught?"

Yes, you do. My parents are Roman Catholic; and I attended a Catholic school; being taught Christian Ethics; which I do not believe in. I would spark debates with the teacher and provide alternative discussions for the class. This is the art of learning.


"do you choose exaclty what you want to see when you go to china and how u want to see it?"

Yes you do. It has been scientifically proven that people's perceptions of vision can be influenced by the mind. This is why many people do not see road signs; if it does not apply to one; the mind often does not even visually see it. Research the UN peacekeeping mission in Somalia and you can see how the people of Somalia and chosen to see what was not really happening.



"as well, when you are experiancing things for the first time your choices in how to expaice them are due to how you expeiced things in your past up to that moment."


or how you choose to percieve them in the future. You are only limitted by your environment and your past Matty, because you let yourself be.



"you cannot think of something you have never touched, smelled, tasted, seen, head or heard of before."

But you can think of whether or not to go and touch them, smell them, taste them, see then, hear them.....




"i can easily sit down and come up with an idea that no one else on this planet has made, but still my idea to draw that came from my enviroment."

In what environment did Da Vinci's helicopter design come from? This concept was not used until hundreds of years later. It was a product of his mind not being limited to his surroundings.




"soryr bro but its not. if the enviroment gives you a reason to chop down that tree (its cold, and raning and you need a shelter) then you will have to cut that tree down."

Or you can use the tree as the shelter; and create a leanto off of it...thus not chopping it down. It wasn't the environment that made you chop it down; it was you.




"inventors use the enviorment to invent thigns. you cannot invent something that dcan not be put together without the enviorment."


Da Vinci invented a helicopter that could not be put together with the environment. It required technology that would not be invented for a few hundred years.

FogofWar: "you sitll are not following what i am saying in any way. im not syanig your enviorment MAKES YOU AND CONTROLLS YOU, but it does MAKE UP YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS SO ANY CHOICE YOU MAKE IS DIRECTLY INFLUENCED BY YOU ENVIORMENT IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE."

Unless you choose to do the exact opposite of what you have been taught; in which case you have defied this environmental factor; and used free will.


You are implying that every person has a destiny; a set path that has been dictated by our environment....but the thing with destiny is that you can either do it; or not....it's entirely up to you.



"u say i wanna see this movie and go to this theature because u like a certian type of movie u like do to ur past enviormental experiances and the theature u like for the same reason"

Absolutely ludicrous. I am the only one in My hometown and My family that likes war documentaries and listens to Classical music. I am the only one in My family that plays musical instruments; and has been in a band, and I am the only one who has tattoos; is not Christian; flies, etc. etc. etc.

FogofWar: "You have made your decisions due to free will. You've explored your options and made decisions. Sure there is some influence by the environment, like whats on TV, whats in the fridge, hows the weather etc, but your environment didn't make your decision for you those examples (except in the case of swimming, poor example, but you can still choose to go swimming in the rain and in good weather its your choice)."

Exactly! You can choose to let the weather stop you. I live in Canada; and our winter does not permit swimming in the lakes; seeing as they are frozen...but if I want to enjoy nature; I can go skiing instead...or if I really want to go swimming; I'll go to the pool; they are open year round.



"But I don't agree that as adults we don't have free will to make decisions. I just find this thinking to be an excuse and it denies responsibility for peoples actions."

It is singlehandedly the biggest downfall to our society! People suing McDonalds because it made them fat. Suing movies because they gave them the idea to kill....come on people! We are responsible for every action; and until we come to realize that we are only letting our environment influence our decisions, then we are not free. This is what the Japanese call Zen.


"You cannot choose something your have never heard of."

You can so. You can choose to come up with new ideas; and this is choosing things you have never heard of.


"f%$y you they do have excuses. to you, they may seem fx*yxw up in the head, but to them its how thier enviorment made them."

I have seen the parts of the world that you have not Matty. I have seen the men that fight against us....they are not products of their environment. They chose to follow their own path; and many did not. Osama bin Laden was fighting alongside men that were funded and aided by the US; he chose to turn against them....his own son chose to oppose him. Osama bin Laden's son gave up his rights to the bin Laden bank account; Billions of dollars; because he saw the very same environment that Osama did; entirely different. Hamid Karzai, the president of Afghanistan, fought side by side with Muhammed Omar; the leader of the Taliban.

The Palestinians CHOOSE to engage in terrorist attacks; it is NOT Israel's doings that have forced them into it...if that were the case, then Ghandi would have been a terrorist and hijacked a plane as well...he didn't. He stood up for his people by sitting...and while his entire nation was being torn to the ground; he sat, meditating.



"i dont see how u dont understand where terrorist are comming from but you think its okay for the us or canada to go into afganastan and kill hundreds of thousands. or into iraq lieing to thier people, or viet nam."

They are lying to no one. I have met people from Iraq and Afghanistan; they are not opposed to us being there. The governmental body of Afghanistan asked the UN to intervene. The people of Iraq call the US friends. Vietnam was the result of a despute between communist seperatists and the governing French colonial rule. You do not understand the mindframe of the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan for the simple reason that you yourself stated Matty; you cannot understand what you have not yet seen. ISAF in Afghanistan has saved the lives of millions, not killed thousands.

FogofWar: "any loss of life is f^$*$^ no matter where its comming from. you think you can justify it in some ways, but they cannot? how unfair is that."


The teachings of Zen state:

Weapons are tools of ill omen; it is the way of nature to dislike them. To use them only when it is unavoidable is the way of nature.


The first line in Sun Tzu's The Art of War is:

War is a necessity of the state; the province between life and death; the road to survival or ruin. Therefore it is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied.




A sword has two edges; and it cuts two ways. In Zen they call speak of the two types: The Killing Sword, and the Life Giving Sword.


To take a life with a sword is to make it a killing sword. A Killing sword can, however, be a lifegiving sword. If the sword is used to kill a tyrant; then thousands of lives will be saved; this is called the lifegiving sword.


Had someone killed Adolph Hitler in 1933, then over 45 million lives would have been spared; and WWII would have been avoided. Is this not justified?


To study the Art of War; and to learn to use a weapon is not evil; it is necessary. To understand how, and when to employ troops; one has the ability to prevent wars.

Toronto 18 was a group of 18 men all convicted of plotting terrorist attacks on Canadian governmental buildings and airports. The members were predominantly Canadian citizens; with family ties to the Middle East; or former immigrants. The leader had admitted to meeting personally with Osama bin Laden on two accounts.

8 Pakistani al Queda members were arrested in London in 2006, with plastic explosives; and Air Canada and American Airlines tickets to Toronto, Detroit, Montrael, Washington, DC.

These terrorist attacks are real; and the threat from the Middle East is real. In us being in Afghanistan; removing a tyrant group that siezed power through a bloody coup, and reinstating the official government of Afghanistan; we have given the people back control of their nation; and prevented to training of future terrorist organizations. For every Taliban insurgent killed; there is one less school being blown up with hundreds of children inside in Kandahar.

They are killing people because they do not worship Islam (and killing Islamic people, against the rules of Islam, because they do not consider them Islamic for not following the same rules). It's not unfair; it's a matter of saving lives worldwide. Go tell the 3000 + victims' families of 9/11 that those terrorists were justified.


"i get to us some other human behaviour is f@$#*%, but to others its who they are ebcause of where they were born. you do not chooose to become phycopath, or a doctor, or a astronout."

Yes, you do choose. Not everyone from the Middle East is radical and a terrorist. In fact; the vast majority oppose al Queda. If the environment made them what they are; then why did several Canadians join Toronto 18; and why is the majority of Afghanistan opposed to the Taliban?


"there ar ethe lucky, and the unlucky"

And there are fortunate and unfortunate. Fortunate is pulling through your unlucky lifestyle, and overcoming the obstacles to become a better person. Unfortunate is letting your environmental impact dictate your life. It is unfortunate that you choose to be unlucky Matty.

FogofWar: "some get hit by busses, some get born into shit ass situations, some get born rich but commit suicide, and some get born poor and love life, some get born rich n love life, some die at the age of 6 from cancer, some live happily to 100


all these sitations are just luck and misfortune, no one controlls any of it. our enviorment does."


I have seen people die young; and live far more than those who die old. It is not how long we are on this planet; it's what we do while we are here. Some choose to make a difference; and are remembered for it; others choose to let their environment dictate their lives; and are forgotten.

Leonidas led 300 Spartans to their death in the face of impossible odds. He was 30 when he died; nearly 2,500 years ago...people still know his name.




"you 100% are who you are ebcause of the enviorment you have been placed in, as is everyone else "

You 100% are who you are Matty, because you let your environment make you. I am who I am, because I chose to leave My environment and make a new life for Myself. My grandmother's family came to Canada on a boat; don't tell Me that you can not change your situation for the better; or that you are limited to what your environment allows you to be. In Austria in 1917; they couldn't afford a single loaf of bread. In Canada in 1917, they purchased a farm.



"dont think for a second you were born with this beutifull soul inside you, as all other "right" human beings."


You weren't born with this beautiful soul inside you; but some of us decided to make that soul grow beautiful.


"and you is ignorant to your surroundings."

Matty, it is you that is truly ignorant to your surroundings. I love nature; and spend as much time in My environment as I can. I am in touch with My surroundings; and because of that; I am in control of My own decisions; not My environment.



"if your looking down upoon someone and think they are doing something wrong and should be blmed because ther eis somethig wrong with them, it makes it sound like u think ur better then them "

Anyone who would blow up an airliner full of people by slamming it into a building full of people; just because they believe they will recieve 70 virgins for doing so; is beneath us!




""Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

-Albert Einstein"


Isn't that saying that we do have free will? The free will to decide to follow our "destiny" or not? The Free will to stand against our environmental impact?

FogofWar: Matty, I strongly suggest that you study into Zen. You would probably enjoy it; and it will help clarify your mind for you in this regard. You will learn to take control of your own conscience; and not let your surroundings dictate your actions.

The Chinese always believed that you can tell alot about a person by their friends. It's not the environment that dictates us; it is us that seeks an environment that we dictate. We choose friends based on our character; we move into places based on preference; and we control our surroundings.

How does a man born in a small Norwegian settlement of less than 500 people, in the prairies of Saskatchewan, end up with a passion for marine biology and mountain skiing?

It wasn't My environment that made Me love sharks, and the snowy slopes of the Rockies; there aren't any sharks in Saskatchewan.

MattyD89: Fog OF War you're a dumbo, no offense. First off, I udnerstand why you say war is a "nesesaty", and at time yes, 100% it is, but it is not justified. As you say, someone getting in a airliner and blowing up a bulding is horrible and that person should be punished or whatever, well, then why is it okay for you to get in a bomber and bomb thier city full of innocent people?

And no matter what the f#^x you think, you're 100% a prod of your envio. You would not be who you are in any shape or form if you were born somewhere else, in a different enviorment, or even just moved somwehre else when you were younger or something. You don't know what you havn't heard, heard of, seen, or felt. there is no such thing is a 100% unique idea.

you say you choose to leave your enviorment? well actually, your enviorment allowed your body, and mind to be able to make that "decision". ultimatly, your decision was choosen by your enviorment.


there is no good of bad, no right or wrong, no good or evil in this world, there just is.

is a Hippo evil when he kills a femals young male baby to eliminate competition umongts males in his enviorment?

is a spider evil when it has sz$ then eats its partner?

or is it evil when a young boy has been taught his entire life that ilsam and allah are the right way and if you do not fight yo uwill not be accepted by allah in the gates of heaven and will be sentenced to enternity in hell so he kills some non ilsmaics???

or is it considered evil when someone gives u a paper cut and you chop thier limbs off, limb by limb? - (metaphor - 911 - afganastan - iraq)


you are ignorant to your surroundings. you only look at what you want to, and you only see what you want to see.

there is a lot out there. A LOT. within nature, within space, within humans, within behaviour, within everything.


i know for a fact i dont know even 1% of anything.

but there r a few things i am certian of.

1 - no god (or at least no KNOWING "creator"

2 - we are prods of our enviorment

3 - time does no exist (it is only a way to communicate umongst humans)

4 - no one is to blame for any action because no one control themselves
( that said of course we cant just let people do whatever they want. in my opinion, as long as you are not negativly affecting another LIVING LIFE FORM, thn be my geust.)


this is about all i am certian of on this planet. we are a tiny blip in a gigantic space we cannot even fathom, or explain. you think you are more then that.

MattyD89: "is beneth us".

youre a total f*%@ head and dont know shit about shit. no one is beneth you, you f%^%&# c^$y suckin a^*zy@^. we are ALL equal no matter of any action. you think youre okay to go kill then im the name of God and your country but if they try and do what they think is right they are beneth you???? your a f*$x@$* pecie of shit idont even give a f%#% what you have to say you ignorant awx%y^y.


i like life, i love nature, but people like you, who think they are better then other deserve to shut the f^y^ up because its people like you who think it is okay to do fz~x~* up things on this planet that hurt other human beings.


a "sin" greated with a "sin" is not any better then a "sin".

MattyD89: you no diff then the fxz#y~ guy yelling "allah akbar" before blowing himself up in the same of islam.

you jusify killing and death in the same way they do.

they feel the way you do about them about you.

actually, i got more respect for them then you, they are willing to take thier life in what they beleive in.can that be said for you? you mgiht have RISKED you life, but are you willing to loose it in the same wya they are? i highly doubt it...

if someone put a gun to your ehad and said "does america have the rght to fight in viet nam? afganastan? iraq? i will kill you if you say america has the right." what would you say?


if u put a gun to one of these islamic "extremist" and asked the same about his religoun he would gladly take the bullet for what he beleives in.