Evil And GOD Cant both Exist.

by123: Ok guys so heres what im thinking.
God by definition (supposedly) is everpresent, omnicient and omnipotent and Morally Perfect.

If god was omnipotent he has the power to get rid of all evil in the owrld.

If he is omnicient he knows eveil exists.

If he is Morally perfect he would see no justice in animals having painfull deaths and children dieing in wrechous pain. If god was morally perfect he would get rid of evil.


Evil Exists.

Either god isnt omnicient or he is not Omnipotent or he isnt morally perfect. Therefore he mustnt exist.

Your thoughts Please?

Irl1987: Personally i don't believe in god. I feel god is a means for humans to understand 'why they are here'. because no one knows for sure how humans and the world came to exist, the theory of Gods allows people to understand the world, whether they are right or wrong, thats my two cents neway

metalzkewl: Sure "evil" is everwhere.Theres unbelievable human suffering,injustice;unspeakable vile things humans do to each other.Mass killings.Hate.

Ok if "God" is the creater..then wow,he is apparently NOT in charge and ruling.I suggest there might be an uneasy "truce" with maybe an "evil one" who still weilds unbelievable power? Hmmm...maybe.

But,no.We are biological organisms with vivid imaginations.Sure there are phenomenon that may suggest a spiritual world.But the Universe is huge and we are only learning.Science explains a lot and will be doing so unless we destroy ourselves...eventually.

Tink: This is something I got on an e-mail a very long time ago.If you're easily offended,maybe you shouldn't read it...

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the
students, 'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' The
atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks
one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren’t you, son?"

"Yes sir”, the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely"

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God’s good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly.
"Aha! The Bible!” He considers for a moment.
"Here's one for you. Let’s say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"'

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You’d help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

Tink: The student does not answer, so the professor continues.
"He doesn’t, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can’t, can you?”, the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again young fella, is God good?"

"Err...yes”, the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one.

"No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters.

"From God."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn’t he? Tell me son, is there evil in this world?"

"Yes sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

So who created evil?” The professor continued,” If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer.

Tink: "Is there sickness, immorality, hatred, ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet.

"Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question.

"Who created them?"

There is still no answer.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is
mesmerized.

"Tell me”, he continues onto another student,” Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing.

"Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I’ve never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical testable demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

Tink: "Nothing”, the student replies.” I only have my faith."

"Yes faith”, the professor repeats.” And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment before asking a question of his own.

"Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes”, the professor replies.” There’s heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes son, there’s cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain.

"You can have lots of heat, even more heat, Super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called "cold”. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see sir; cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

StuckInTheSixties: Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt this sermon.

Tink: "What about darkness professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes”, the professor replies without hesitation.” What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? That’s the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him.

"So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes professor, my point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time.

"Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality”, the student explains.” You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it. Now tell me professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other students, let me give you an example of what I mean."

Tink: The student looks around the room.

"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?"

The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical stable demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no
brain, with all due respect sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers.

"I guess you’ll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith and, in fact, faith exists with life”, the student continues.” Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds,” Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied,” Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down...

StuckInTheSixties: This tired old sermon has many holes in it. But it has one very good defense for those who would criticize it:

It's fwx@z&$ LONG, the work would be tedious, and likely, no one would bother reading it.

If you're impressed with the "logic" that the sermon purportedly utilizes, here's a challenge:

Write a different story, shorter, that utilizes the same supposed points of logic in support of the same ideas that this long, tired, cobwebby diatribe has. (And try not to abuse the scientific principals behind the concepts of "heat" and "cold" as this thing did.)



Here's my take on the idea put forth by the initial post in this thread:

If God is omnipotent, than s/he must also either not give a rat's ass about us, or be an outright sadist.

Of course, the theists will cry out about "free will."

But if God is omnipotent, why didn't s/he create a world in which free will can exist without evil? Why didn't God create the perfect world?

The only rational answer is that God either doesn't give a rat's ass about us, or s/he's an outright sadist. Or doesn't exist.

Tink: Ohh, I don't know. I wouldn't say I was impressed. I received it about a year ago and had it sitting here. At one point in time I was going to toss it into the religion forum (lol, just for fun)

I would say that this email makes more sense to me then any of the drivel I have read in the religion forum.

Feel free to point out the holes, as that is why I posted it. I have been reading it for a year now. I would be very interested to hear others thoughts on it.

I do believe in God. I don't believe that God created "evil" though. I do however believe he allows the evil to remain. For what reason? I have no answer to that.

About all I know right now is that I do not believe in organized religion. I think ones relationship with God is suppose to be one on one.

StuckInTheSixties: Okay. Here's a hole:

The story makes a point that because we can't see the professor's brain, by the professor's "flawed" logic, we don't really know if it's there or not.

( Considering how the professor lamely suggests himself that we have to take it on "faith," perhaps he actually doesn't have a brain ... )

The professor serving up the word "faith" is the most hackneed point of a hackneed story. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that he has a brain. We all have brains. Why would he be any different? Okay, if the professor REALLY wanted to make a point, he could have a brain surgeon remove part of his skull so that the class could look right in there and see for themselves. Look! There's his brain! You could reach right out with your finger and poke it! Could the Christian kid present the same unequivocal evidence of God? Right before the students' very eyes? Could they reach out with a finger and poke God?

The story repeatedly tries to make the point that unless a phenomenon can be perceived with our five senses, there is no more evidence of that phenomenon than there is of God. Lame.

Aura: Okay, I've had both catholic and protestant schooling so i know the stories and read the book. Don't ask for quotes tho it's been a while.

And if you choose to believe you oucht to keep to the rules of the 'universe' created.

With that in mind, i think those most asked questions (why does god allow evil, why does evil happen to good people, doesn't god care about us) make no sense and are more like a child screaming "it's not fair" when a parent says "no more tv till you've done your chores"

Far as i know, christians believe their immortal souls come from god, and in the best case they return to god to be forever in his glory (or some such) so why would god care what happens to the body our souls are trapped in while we're here. I don't think he enjoys our suffering but from his persective, in the grand sceme of things it's just...irrelevant. He cares about us sure, but the 80 plus pounds of flesh (wich includes all the pain sensors btw) isn't 'us'. It's a very very small and temporary part of 'us' at best.

Why did God create evil/allow evil to exist? Again by the rules of the story told, he had to. God may know and understand everything, the souls/beings he created obviously do not. Maybe the first beings he created, not animals or man, but angels did know everything, but knowledge does not mean understanding. And one in particular, Lucifer, did not get it. God told the angels to worship man as they would him. And Lucifer just couldn't understand why doing good would be good. There was nothing to messure it with. God had to make a 'not good' 'absence of good' 'evil' whatever you have to call it to get his point across.

And ofcourse as soon as you have two options there will always be some who take the other option.

So why did God not give us or angels understanding and be done with it? I'm not sure understanding is something you can give away, even if you understand something clearly. (ever try explaining math to someone who just doesn't get it?....)

flashie: simple idea...


THIS WORLD ISNT HEAVEN... YOURE BEING TESTED TO SEE IF YOU QUALIFY FOR A BETTER LIFE NEXT TIME. IS THAT HARD TO GRASP?

flashie: we go to school to pass exams, we put things together to engineer vehicles, we knock boots to have children.

this talk about evil is like saying we should be born with kids and a car and live happily ever after.

the journey is perhaps the most important part before we reach our destination.

btw good response zen

StuckInTheSixties: "THIS WORLD ISNT HEAVEN... YOURE BEING TESTED TO SEE IF YOU QUALIFY FOR A BETTER LIFE NEXT TIME. IS THAT HARD TO GRASP?"

No, that's easy to grasp. Do you have any objective, tangible proof for that?

I didn't think so.

THE GODS RALPH AND RODNEY, WHO RESIDE IN THE CORE OF URANUS, WATCH US AND TAKE BETS ON OUR BEHAVIOR FOR THEIR OWN AMUSEMENT. IS THAT HARD TO GRASP?

There's no objective, tangible proof for that either. Both of those hypotheses are equal in terms of objectivity.

flashie: youre wrong. you just made up ralph and rod in your anus. im talking about natural nature of life, physics whatever. you get out what you put in. throughout life plus extras. you might be able to turn on drop out and invent reality on some good acid if you really wanna be stuck in the sixties. but you didnt stop vietnam or do much but get high at woodstock. fast forward sixty years and ralph and rod in your anus is a figment in your imagination but no one else. but I like the insight in how your pickled mind works still. keep it up

flashie: jesus is the son of god. god is a man. ralph and rod live in sits anus and universe orbits that... dont be silly. look at my hamster, its my son. no really. maybe you heard too many far out stories sat in a field trippin to hawkwind while your neighbours got shot in vietnam and now youre some new age guru.

by123: im not saying to take this one way or another.
My dad is an athiest ( i was never christened) but he says that even if god did exist he would never let us know. Otherwise people would be comiting suicide left right and centre.

''why would you complete level one if you could get a free pass to level two?'' is his way of phrasing it.

P1:if god proved his existance
P2eople would comit suicide.

consider the idea of 'suicide by cop' where men put themselves in a postion where they know they will be killed by the cops but still choose to put themselves in that position anyway. Is this suicide?

And while i know some of you might hit back by saying that if both of those premises were true you would not get into heaven because suicide is considered one of the greatest sins. But would someone else killing you on purpose qualify for suicide? i mean wasn't jesus 'suicide by gaurd' still suicide. He did go to the garden knowing the gaurds were going to come for him. He justifies it by saying it was the desire of god. did got get jesus to comit suicide by gaurd?

Just want to see responses.

StuckInTheSixties: The idea of Ralph and Rodney was, indeed, pulled out of my ass. To make a point, the point of which you sidestepped.

The point is that there's no objective, tangible proof for either your hypothesis that we're all involved in some giant, celestial test, or Ralph and Rodney.

And as is typical, you wandered off topic in order to rant, this time about Vietnam, and to make fun of my username.

So confront my point, if you will.

What's your objective, tangible proof that we're all "BEING TESTED TO SEE IF [we] QUALIFY FOR A BETTER LIFE NEXT TIME"?

flashie: no sits, youre failing to get it too. its my own idea, I just offered it. state your conclusion and prove it... you cant. you dont have to follow my line of thought. im not asking you to. im quite content for you to make your own choices. but at the same time you cant disprove mine.

flashie: my only proof is nature of life

StuckInTheSixties: Of course I can't disprove your hypothesis. Nor can you disprove that silliness about Ralph and Rodney.

So what?

In a logical argument, he who postulates has the burden of offering proof of the postulation.

Colemania89: Well technically your "suicide by cop" theory isn't really suicide. No-one really know they're going to get killed. Who says that the killer or the cop in this instance has a change of heart or something dramatic happens which changes the consequences of the event? On their part it may be in self defence or just plain murder but i wouldn't classify it as suicide.

I hope my opinion helped u!

flashie: because the ralph and rodney phenomenom doesnt carry the weight and momentum of someone who changed the world sits