The Wisdom of Religion? (Page 2)

LiptonCambell: >>>If you state something is TRUE, then you must prove it in the scientific format...

Were you not stating something is true, though?

Blackshoes: Carol .The Bible states that if one follows the light .He will be given more light .Some take this to mean that he will sooner or later be given the lord Jesus in his life ? I'm not sure if that the only way to interpert that verse .. I agree that it mit be ??

Blackshoes: Lipton Cambell Jesus has prove it", through his words Life ,mircales , and rising from the dead .Whether one accept that proof ',is totally up to them ..If you choose not to accept the truth .Whos fault is it ..! The ones that have told you the truth ",or the ones that rejects of it ??

LiptonCambell: Carol made it clear that answers should be scientific in nature, with peer reviewed journals and such

Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes...you posted this...

"...The Bible states that if one follows the light, he will be given more light..."

I posted this...

"...What about a man who...say lives in China, who has never heard of Christianity, and his lack of knowledge is not his fault. He is virtuous and good, kind and well liked, and known for his genorisity. Does God punish him because he was born in a place where he doesnt hear the Christian message? Dont you think that would be a cruel thing to do...to literally condemn a man to eternal torment because he was never exposed to what you belive is the only way to heaven?..."

So...my question to you is...

If my man from China has no light to follow...and I am assuming that you are relating your Christian beliefs as 'the light'...is the man eternally punished for never given the oppurtunity to be a Christian... something not by his design, and not by his own fault?

Are you then saying that since God created the man in a place where he will be never given the oppurtunity to hear the Christian message, and by default not able to accept the 'cororate badge' of salvation, God has deemed him eternally corrupt from the day he was conceived in his mother?

How cruel is this?

Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes...

Things are deemed 'beliefs' or 'opinions' until they are proven. Things that are proven true are called facts. Facts are not beliefs or opinions.

In this forum, if you say something is true, you must have the proof it is. If you call someone wrong, or claim that they are lying, you must prove them wrong. It becomes your burden to present a rebuttal in a civilised logical and reasonable fashion, using the scientific method.

To me, a miracle is to the amasement and awe of the observer (the one intended to be impressed) To many, the birth of a child is a miracle, although it happens every day, millions of times.

Although we never saw the miracles of the Prophets, we are not the ones who were supposed to be impressed. What we read in the holy writings is simply a written observation by a human...like you and I. We cant prove them because we didnt see them, nor are they recalled in any other place other than that holy book.

XWhiteandBlue: Wow Carol, I gotta admit, that much to my surprise I find that you are a moderate!

My appologies, as I had misjudged you as a hard-line activist.
Your positions (from a Muslim stance) are actually VERY similar to mine (from a Cristian point of view) I guess the other topics were either a sore/touchy subject, and I do have to admit I enjoy dismantling people's agrments simply because it is intellectually challenging.

I am actually very much enjoying this conversation.

So, If Chrisitanty's "ultimate wisdom" (or overall purpose, from MY point of view/interpretation) is "salvation of the soul" (getting to heaven and having a personal relationship with a God Almighty who loves us , defined by us as a "Triune God" Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

What is Islam's "ultimate wisdom" (from your point of view/interpretation)?

Blackshoes: The facts are there to all to see..If you don't agree that its a fact ',Makes it no less a fact ,Proof is subjective to the obsever of the evidence presented.. If you don't believe the evidence ..That will not change whether it's a fact..Jesus rose from the dead Fact ..God is real fact ..Gravity is a fact .Faith is the belief in things unseen . Almost all evidence presented is second hand .I've never meet George Washington .Yet I accept him as fact ..I understand the differrence between faith and fact . However: I know that Jesus is a fact due to faith ..Just like one has faith that we went to the Moon ..We have faith that John Adams was alive yet we haven't seen him ..Peace ..For every knees shall bow and confess that Jesus is Lord ..

Su Ni Chang: White...

Please let me tell you my point of view on 'moderate' Islam. There is no such thing as 'moderate' Islam. It is like saying to me, I am almost pregnant. Either you are, or you arent Muslim.

Even if people are the most evil among men, and say they are Muslim...we cant say they arent. If they are doing evil things 'in the name of Islam', we can condemn thier acts, we can hope 'justice comes to them', and we can help thier victims, we can say that what they are doing is not in the Qur'an, or against teachings of Islam, or they have a different view, but we cant denounce them as Muslim...as only God knows the standing of a man with God.

I know this may sound strange to you, but, only God knows the standing between the individual person, and himself. This is probably the hardest thing for me not to do, given all of the violence, hate and bigotry that goes on 'in the name of Islam'. This is my 'jihad'...not to judge another in the way only God can. I am sure that for many who love peace, and hate to see our religion slandered...by those on either side...it is thier 'jihad' too.

Now...to the ultimate wisdom.

I think the ultimate wisdom in Islam is, to understand that the goal is not to even attempt to be like God on perfection. God knows all the answers, and we must learn them by trial and error. In other words, if we are given the ability to chose, we cant be perfect without experience, and sometimes failure. I think that the ultimate wisdom in Islam is, that we are on a journey seeking truth. There is no oath, allegence, contract, or agreement that is valid, until it is tested in adversity...and the most valued of these oaths and allegences...is love.

Love demanded is not love, bonds tested in the weather of life held strong is love. The love between you and God, and the love you have between your fellow travelars on earth is a choice....tested and tempered in adversity and either broken, or made stronger.

XWhiteandBlue: Black... slow down buddy; (and expand your paragraph structure. it makes it easier to read when your comments are not alll crunched together)

While I agree with your statement of faith. I disagree with your statement that faith=proof.
If you have incontestable proof, then you don't have faith... you have an observation ( John 20: 24-30, Thomas, put your finger in my scars, stick your hand in my side... blessed are those that believe without having seen...)

Having faith denotes a certain "willing surrender" of the rational mind.
When this surrender is made in a concious and willing manner it becomes a beautiful offering of love towards God. (I don't fully understand Jesus' divinity, or the mechanism by which his sacrifice paid the price for my transgressions, and yet, fully aware of this, I chose to believe in him, and th egift of salvation that he bestowed on me)

Su Ni Chang: Black...

When you claim to have a 'truth' over someone else, when you say they are wrong, or you accuse them of lying, your 'truth' can no longer be a 'subjective' truth.

Although you hold a 'subjective truth' based on your observation, and your interpretation of that observation, when you say that someone else is wrong, the burden to rebutt or refute must come from an 'objective truth'...simply because you have to convience the person that you are stating a FACT, and not simply claiming your opinion to be right.

This is proving something using the scientific method...to convince someone...not that they are wrong, but to open thier mind to the possibility of 'another view of right'.

XWhiteandBlue: Wow Carol, that is beautiful.

If all those that follow Allah, Yaweh, Jesus, or any other deity, abscribed to such a code, this world would be a much better /peaceful place.

However, (no disrespect intended) that code could apply equally to Christianity. (Mathew 22: 26 -40 .. the greatest commandment: Love God above all things, and love your neighbor as yourself)... the greatest commandment is LOVE

I'd like to know what makes it unikely Muslim in your eyes.
I guess what I'm asking (if it is not too personal to ask) is what drives your faith?

Comrade_:
-Is religion a good idea, or bad, and why?

To me, there's no clean cut answer as yes/no.

Religion as a belief system/ Religion as an organisation has shown itself to be a means of 'good', in terms of its social role, emotional role within society and on an individual level. It has also shown itself to be a tool of suppression, a distraction from realities, etc.

There's more to say but it's going up to 11pm here.

Religion is a bit complicated as it varies in culture and there are too many of them to assess and pin down..but generally, it can be seem as "good/bad" subjectively too. Example I might view it as religion having a bad influence if it hinders someone from furthering their education, while someone else might see it as a good thing and say "what is in this life is temporary compared to spiritual goals". Different priorities and views of life.

I'll stick to it being both.

duey: Carol: I am a Christian and my beliefs are the ones of my Father Our Lord, If you look around and see the wonderment of Life You will no that we are all because of him.

Blackshoes: Carol .. I make no claim .The facts are there for all to see. .We are what we know, taught,experience,see, hear,or have instilled within us . I know most see my faith as arrgoant .However ;The truth is within anyones soul that seeks God with all their heart, mind ,and strength.I don't believe any rightous man/woman will ever see Hell .The're are none rightous no not one for all have sinned and falled short of the glory of God .I also believe that many are deceived ,and will not enter the gates of heaven', just on that belief that being good will earn them that Grace.When God had already provided a way throught his son Jesus .Is there one truth ..Yes .For theres only one God n'God does things his way not mine nor what others think that he should do ..What I'm trying to explain is everything is taken on faith that we've been told ,seen,heard.or experienced the truth .

XWhiteandBlue: Black... I think what Carol is trying to say. (and correct me if I'm wrong)

is that we are sharing our ideas here to compare and contrast in an intellectual and mutually respectful manner.
Not to attempt to proslethyze to each other.

Taking the attitude of "MY way is the right way, and any other way is wrong" closes the oportunity to exchange ideas.

And quite frankly, is a very ineffective way to evangelize. Remember, as a Christian you (we) are an evangelist (spreader of teh GOOD news of Jesus'sacrifice and resurecction) you are not a "prophet of doom" anouncing the coming of the end of days "doomsday"

Which, by the way... the Mayans say is this coming Friday... sometime in the afternoon LOL

Blackshoes: X white n blue I'm not a writer . Please bear with me..The rational mind or flesh cannot accept God love ',nor understand beyond they're presuppositions .It takes the Grace of God to be given faith in Christ that will brings salvation ..I didn't say that faith = proof .I was trying to explain almost all things are taken by faith .Either in the sicentic works of others the teachings of others the writting etc .It's all faith in something or someone .. As for me I take the word of the eye witness to all things Jesus christ the son of God ..

Su Ni Chang: Duey..

Thank you for sharing. Please feel free to share your thoughts here. I appreciate them greatly, and I am honoured that you will.

You have one component of my belief that there is God...when you look around this world and see the beauty of nature, and the good hearts of humanity. I know this world seems rough, and harsh if you always watch the news, but I dont see thr world that way.

I say that the existance of a Creator being is proven by nature itself, and the conscience of humanity to be guided by what is right is instilled in us, but some of us choose to ignore it.

I remember a story once I heard.

A young boy and his father watched 2 wolves fighting. They both watched for a long time, no wolf gaining the upper hand. After a while the boy asked his father which wolf would win. The father answered 'The one who ate the best'.

In other words, we become the 'nature' we feed most. If we feed the instilled nature that God planted us at birth, then we are mostly good...id we feed our selfish nature, we become not so good.

So Duey...I agree with you, the wonderment is proof to me that there is God.

Blackshoes: The peace of God ..be with you .Through his only Son

XWhiteandBlue: And I agree that the gospels were "eyewitness accounts" of a miracle that changed the world.

I just feel that in "sharing the Gospel" we need to be careful in choosing our words, as we are offering a gift. (Which the recipient is free to accept, or reject) We cannot force, guilt, or otherwise attempt to "push" those good news to others... as we may till the land, plant the seed, and maybe even water it... but it is only God Almighty the one who causes the fruit to grow.

Blackshoes: X white and blue .The truth needs to be told with love from the heart that God wishs us to have .I love my brothers n' sisters .for God Is Love..

Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes...

You are absolutly correct.

These two statements bring your comment to a beautiful observation.

You posted this...

"...We are what we know, taught,experience,see, hear,or have instilled within us..."

...and this...

"...The truth is within anyones soul that seeks God with all their heart, mind ,and strength.."

I think that those beauiful observations should be complimented with the understanding that not all people have the same experiences, are not all learned in the same things, our senses havent been exposed to the same things, and we all percieve differently the same things.

It is kind of like witnessing an event, and describing that event from your point of view. the more points of view you are willing to except, the more knowledgable about the whole you are.

I guess this is why I dont promote Islam over any other religion. Islam is 'one point of view' from one 'vantage point' in humanity. It has it's own teachings, experiences, exposures...etc. Christianity is another vantage point, Jews have another, non belivers...another, and so on..

XWhiteandBlue: My good friend from college, Jorge posted this on Facebook, and I thought it was too good not to share:

Tensions seem to be running high these holidays with all this madness. I propose spending quality time with your family. Not all can or should be stress, politics and anger. And if or when politics enters the conversation, remember that the "other side" simply sees things differently. For example; for every biblical passage supporting a conservative view you can find another supporting a liberal idea. Within the same building (Broadmoor Baptist, Shreveport) teachings can be diametrically opposed on social issues between the English and the Spanish service. I know it, because I've heard them. One of the perks of being bilingual! My point is this; we cannot solve problems if we simply vilify others. We cannot solve problems if we yell at each other. In the words of the first Republican Governor of Puerto Rico, musician and philanthropist Luis A. Ferré: "La razón no grita, la razón convence." This loosely translates to: "Reason does not scream. Reason convinces." I hope this and my other posts cause reflection, and not anger. At the end of the day, I'm just another concerned human being trying to make this world a better place for my children and my grandchildren. I wished all of my Jewish brothers a “Happy Hanukah.” I wish all of my Christian brothers a “Merry Christmas.” And if you do not consider yourself religious (like many of my friends), I also wish you the best!

He is a wise man, and I look up to him.

Su Ni Chang: This is a beautiful response to hate...

Notice that people know hate by the people who spread it. Hear the dialouge between the people who are witnessing the bigot speak...hear what they are saying about the hypocracy of claiming to love God, and destoying his words.



All you need is Love...love is all you need to silence hate.

Blackshoes: Dear Carol .May the love of God that surpasses all knowledge ',fill your heart mind ,and soul. I agree that love is all we need ,and that God is love. I just have to tell the truth that I know .For if I say there is any other way to heaven than through Jesus christ :then i'd be calling Jesus ,and his word a lie .As i said from the begining, and proclaim from the rooftops', with love ,and fear in my heart ,and Soul.. Jesus is my lord and savior . Love for you", and fear for me for' I'm just a sinner with the hope of salvation.I don't really worry about what other do or do not do that is their business .For I will not be he'll responsible for that others have done", only for what I have done or not done n'said on the Day of Judgement