The Wisdom of Religion? (Page 4)

billy_piper: so the wisdom of religion imo as a man made device to control the mobs much like government does only leaves me to say, never follow the mob, if you seek enlightenment and wisdom youre more likely to find it on your own terms not by joining a church mosque or synagogue.

Su Ni Chang: as long as this is your opinion, it is fine.

Zanjan: Catching up here. Some good points were made earlier in this thread so I wanted to touch on some things that weren’t mentioned.

Point: about religions being man made. Some religions are definitely man-made but not all of them; a few are historical stand outs, distinguished from the lesser by what they share in common – unity of wisdom, purpose, and vision.... plus location and timing.

Six thousand years of written history records a golden string of truth and fact, with one Revelation, delivered by one Personage, followed by another Revelation, delivered by a different Personage….and so on and so on. Each of these Holy Books has claimed its Revelation was God-made and God-sent; they don’t say the same for the followers who recorded that religion’s early history, or of its adherents in the future.

Each of these distinguished Personages produced a Book, unlike anything a regular man (not a Prophet) could produce. The proof is each of these Revelations created a new spirit in the downtrodden, raising up a people who produced a new civilization, the greatest in the world at one time. I know of no regular man (not a Prophet) or government in history who’s ever done that.

Give these particular religions fair credit. If such Personages had not existed, there would be no history of them, no nations basing their laws on their Books, no advancement of civilization. When such glorious religious societies begin to fail, it’s due to its advanced age and gradual influx of corruption.

As followers lose understanding, they mold the religion into the shape of their own desires - this part, with its subsequent rules and by-laws would be the man-made, revised issue. It doesn’t work so good; thus, a spiritual darkness descends on them like winter; its coldness seems to affect all of humanity.

Nevertheless, there’s always a few amongst them who hold the lamp, keeping watch for signs of the next Revelator.

Zanjan: Point: about there being only one way to God. What is the wisdom in this?

If Jesus had been the only way *ever* then nobody before His day would have made it to heaven. For tens of thousands of years, all their worship and spiritual goals would have been for naught, along with the efforts of Adam, Abraham, Moses etc. This perspective discounts their value, implying none of them could have made it to heaven.

If Jesus had been the only way *ever*, how is it He couldn’t appeal to the changing far flung needs of future mankind? Jesus said "I have more to tell you but you can't bear it now"......doesn't this hint that one day they might be *ready* to handle it?

The Christ Spirit brought the enlightenment of true understanding; if this Spirit had not gone away, as Jesus said it would, there would be no need for it to return. When it returns, it re-creates the world. If that’s true, surely there will be evidence of it, just as there was before.

I can’t believe that these distinguished Personages, of the most sublime vision, could not appreciate the Prophets gone before them. If not for Jesus, the rest of the planet wouldn’t have known about Moses and the Jewish Faith; Christianity spread the OT because that was its foundation for new understanding. This is true of the birth each great religion.

In hindsight, has not the purpose of every one of these religions been to prepare the people for the next one? Why else would each have its own theme? If the wisdom in religion was meant to be progressive, then how can one denigrate the great religions that followed them? How can one make a valid claim that “mine is the only true religion”?

Consequently, I cannot believe that these same distinguished Personages, of the most sublime vision, could not see the glory of future religions and civilizations to come after them. With such penetrating powers of prophecy, how could Jesus not have foreseen the magnificent glory of Islam? How could He not have prepared His future followers for a place in that realm?

Considering how rare the appearances of such great Personages, how far apart they are on history’s timeline, it should be easy to see that each of them were the only way to true understanding for those people in that decrepit, perverse place in His time.

That said, the *Way to God* must be in all the Holy Books, no matter when they were Revealed. When the identical divine wisdom is found in more than one Holy Book, you can’t say one is right and the other is wrong.

Blackshoes: Yes Zanjan .According too the Bible .Jesus is the only way to Heaven now, past , present ,and future . Whether that wise to you doesn't matter . God wisdom is in the risen Christ ",not in sinful men . Acts 2:27-31 1 Petter 3:18-20 4:6 Ephesians 4:8-10 Whether the qu'ran has some wisdom is a matter of opinion .I don't believe that Mohammad ever did any mircales other than accending unto heaven ..

Zanjan: I think you're proselytizing again, ignoring the ops request. In my opinion, also inserting your own words into scriptural verse doesn't show any appreciation for its sacredness.

You've not posted a single thing about the wisdom of the existence of religion; therefore, one gathers this subject isn't your forte.

Zanjan: The wisdom of religion is this:

The core of a religion - its sacred scripture - is the system of social education intended to nurture, train and edify the souls of men. Therefore, what is religion without involvement in its community of believers? All you’d have is a set of beliefs.

Belief isn’t enough. Understanding, achievement, and attainment of nearness to God comes through diligent practice, and we need others with a like objective to work along with us to that end, especially for the sake of the children.

Love comes in all forms in humans; however, those kinds of love are limited and flaky. Whereas Divine Love is unconditional love; this is what religious people are supposed to be trying to achieve - to learn to love with the same love that God loves with.

You cant teach a wisdom you don't know how to model - if it's not within you, it's not yours to give.

Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes...

As I have stated before, if you claim something is true, or you are refuting someone else, it cant be refuted or rebutted with a 'subjective truth'. To rebutt or refute, you must bring to the conversation an 'objective truth'. This means, that is is not your opinion, it is not your perspective, but is a proven fact.

The point in which you say 'this or that is true'...YOU have the obligation to prove it if challenged.

"The Bible says (this or that) is first of all not an objective truth in itself. Secondly, how you interpret it is not objective truth either...it is your opinion based on what you have read been taught or studied.

An 'objective truth' is like this. We know that Thomas Edison existed because the evidence is his inventions. We have his PERSONAL documentation, authenticaed by people in history who knew him on a professional and personal level, and we have a 'secular' (that would be like newspapers, science journals, debates in which his name and accomplishments were mentioned...and so on) accounting of his accomplisments in many varied and diverse sources.

The Bible is only proven by...the Bible. The Qur'an actually is the only book ourside of the Bible to give the Bible some validity. However (not getting into a conversation about the trinity) some of the things Christians belive are not belived to be validated by the Qur'an.

As far as 'miracles.

How do you expect me...as a Muslim...not to belive God allowed Muhammad (and notice I did not say that Muhammad performed miracles) to perform miracles, and expect me also to belive Jesus performed miracles that I personally didnt witness, and there is no documentation outside of the Holy Writings that claim this?

Zanjan: "The Qur'an actually is the only book ourside of the Bible to give the Bible some validity."

Millions of people gave the Bible 'validity' before Muhammad appeared, and without ever hearing of Muhammad and Islam. I'm one of those people. I didn't need Muhammad to tell me the truth of the Bible because the Revelation of God speaks for itself and is proven in the civilization it creates.

Muhammad glorified Jesus, He didn't 'validate', which means 'to give it credibility'. The Word of God is always credible... it plays out flawlessly in a timeless fashion. God doesn't change His ways.

Perhaps what you meant is that through the Quran, God *confirmed* what Jesus did and what He meant in His speech by clarifying those things people had come to misunderstand. After the passage of 500 years, Christians had picked up all kinds of whacky ideas, just as they do today.

The Quran is the world's first fully *authenticated* Holy Book. No one argues that. This means there are no writings or third-party stories of men in it to conflate with the Word of God; it was written down the moment Muhammad spoke, and He verified it as correct; and finally, it has remained unchanged since its original delivery.

Humans, on the other hand, have not remained unchanged nor do they manage to copy down history correctly or completely, and they certainly don't refrain from making future revisions of it. This is why we, on the world stage, cannot accept the Hadith as authentic.

Blackshoes: Zanjan .As far as other teaching I couldn't say beyond what i've read and studied .I've seen nothing within they're teaching that shows anything wiser than.The teachings of Jesus Christ Nor do i see the mircales that God has done through Jesus Moses Noah etc . ..For me ',It comes down to the one thing ,that is beyond all other religions .All of their leaders are dead .Jesus is alive . So It comes down to ,Should I follow the follower ",or follow the leader .. As for me I follow Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God .. What others do (as i have already said ) Is they're business.We'll all be at Judgement day. They can dicuss their opinions then . The Bible says IT ! .I believe IT ! That settles IT !! Peace, love ,Faith,Grace are the only true wisdoms IMO

Su Ni Chang: Zanjan...

Thank you for your correction of my statement. I did mean what you pointed out 'authenticate' rather than 'validate'.

I humbly thank you for understanding me, and correcting me.

In the Islam I learned and that surrounded me as I grew up, the Hadiths were taken only as an 'observation' of how practice of Islam can be interpreted, and not a template of how Islam should be practiced by us.

We are taught that...even though the Hadiths may contain some good practices (that nothing is wrong with copying the way Muhammad practiced the edict from the Qur'an to pray), there are other things that are cultural, and are excused and looked over in the culture as not to upset the people and turn them away from the message.

Where I learned Islam, and the Islam that surrounded me, there were no cultural practices simular than those where Islam 'originated' (or in my opinion, where God sent the Prophet to deliver a message to the people he was sent to relate to) where I live, so if we followed the Hadiths to the letter as 'sunnah', as some do, we could not be 'Chinese', and would take away from the diversity that God intended in Islam.

In other words, we would all be Arabs from Yinchuan...lol.

Blackshoes...

I think that your very first paragraph says all we need to know about you and your inablity to see the same thing from all perspectives. You wrote...

",,,as far as other teachings I couldn't say beyond what I have read and studied...'

The problem is this...wrapped in that statement is...that I have stopped seeking truth because I have found it by following someones interpretation of 'obedience to God'. I wondt discuss or concider any other points of view, or another perspective of the same view because I follow the interpretation of someone else.

To me...Blackshoes....this is the fall of a person who has created, or worships a 'tangable' object as God (such as a man) He simply falls to his own understanding, and 'reads and studies' those who agree with him, and demean and demoise other people's beliefs'

Blackshoes: Carol .You'd have to see it that way .We're all bais .However: I've study enough about Islam to know that it came long after .Christains were dying by the thosuands for doing nothing more than Not bowing down to Ceaser. It's typical to assume that anyone that doesn't agree with you're teachings : Knows little about them or in some way are trying to proselytizing .You also stated I'm obligated to prove it .I have neither tried to change you're belief nor am I obligated to prove anything of what God has already proven . You ,ve asked for scientific prove earlier again .Science maybe a religion to some", it's not to me . I have study my entire life .I'm only a witness to what has happen to me', and what I know .The truth is there for you ,and all to see or accept . I cannot force nor would force someone to believe the truth .If they choose to be blind to it", that's they're business. I should say that doesn't mean that Islam doesn't have truth. Within it's teachings .All I can say is that the Bible states there is no other way .If you disagree then take it up with God on the last day .Seek yea the kingdom of God first .Peace be with all that seek God kingdom and his grace fill each and every heart.

Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes...

You posted this...

"...Carol .You'd have to see it that way .We're all bais .However: I've study enough about Islam to know that it came long after .Christains were dying by the thosuands for doing nothing more than Not bowing down to Ceaser. It's typical to assume that anyone that doesn't agree with you're teachings..."

In this statement, you claimed that 'Islam came after Christianity"

So, lets use your logic to attack your claim.

Are you limiting God to your own understanding by implying that God only sent one messanger at one time for all of us? So...using your logic, since Judism came before Christianity...what is the purpose of Christiantiy? Why isnt Judism the 'right and only way' to see heaven to you?

...and, what does 'bowing down to Ceaser' have anything to do with dying, who came first, or...this dialouge?

In this dialouge, as I have mentioned, if you claim something is true, or if you claim someone else is mislead, or lying...you are obligated to show that person with FACTS that what you are claiming is true.

Your personal experiences are not witnesses to someone elses. These are not EVIDENCES as to the existance of God...that your beliefs are the only 'true' ones, or that you can refute or rebutt, someone else with them.

For further thought...The Bible says (whatever) is not evidence that it is true, much in the same context that a Superman comic says a man can fly when you use it to demean and demonise other people's beliefs.

Claiming that someone else is wrong, mislead, or lying using your personal 'experiences' and 'perceptions' is actually creating a diety of your own understanding...that diety is you.

This is not a dialouge of promoting a religion over another. Please create your own room for this.

Blackshoes: You keep makeing the same mistake . The truth is there .( If you chooce not to believe it) That's you're business .I've only replied to you're attacks of that truth. The proof is there for all to see .. You'll will see soon enough if you choose to reject it ..Logic: so you play or assume somehow the Bible is as foolish as a comic book . .That's neither logic or knowledgeable.I'll not bother you post any longer . We both believe in God . The rest will be history soon enough ..

Su Ni Chang: Balckshoes...

It is probably best that you dont post anymore here.

Zanjan: "Christains were dying by the thosuands for doing nothing more than Not bowing down to Ceaser."

That was in the early days of Christianity, whose members were cut of a different cloth than it's later followers. I noticed you omitted that Christians were slaughtering the Muslims by the tens of thousands during the crusades. Oh, and the bloody escapades of the Christians to the New world, destroying its native peoples...oh, and more bloody campaigns by the latter day Popes. Looks like Jesus was dead to them.

The NT stands true.....but history records that too many of it's later followers failed to live up to it.

I say this not to detract from the good people in Christianity, and the education it still continues to serve. I say this to show that all Revelations from God each had a dispensation - meaning, it's impact, strength of creativity, and efficacy was intended to last for a very specific length of time - this is why the Abramic religions each have their own calendar.

Religion is an organic process that must move along with the cultural evolution of mankind.

Had Christianity been meant to suffice all forever, God wouldn't have needed to send Muhammad, answering the prayers of the people. The world wouldn't have had the Quran......how poor we would have been without it.

Zanjan: Something else I want to touch on is the language of Revelation - the Word of God. Inasmuch as it doesn't seem to change from religion to religion, this tells me it's the same Voice. That the spiritual principles don't change, tells me it's the same Light.

But that the wording changes tells me something much about the people God is speaking to, and gives me insight into why the tone changes.

Moses spoke as though He was the one who did wrong. He didn't, but the people of that time and place couldn't bear criticism; ergo, He took their sins onto His own shoulders, assuming responsibility for their stubbornness. So, as a Statesman, you see Him talking to God on behalf of the people.

Then we see the simple gentleness of Jesus, who spoke to the people as a brother....so softly, so endearing, so...overlooking of their sins. He assumed responsibility for their wrongs in a different manner - by sacrificing Himself for love, doing what would touch their hearts as a family, the way blood brothers do.

Now Muhammad, what a difference! How harsh His tone seemed to me after Jesus, yet the truth was the same. Here, He speaks to a tough and feirce desert people who only understand one thing - power and command. They respect only the voice of authority, so that was what Muhammad had to be to them - an unflinching, firm, top-o- the line General. Nothing less would give them confidence in the Lord.

Today, the world is a multi-cultural society with close connections and easy contact with each other. What do you suppose moderns might most respect in a the voice of wisdom, authority, love and command?

Blackshoes: Zanjan Jesus stated very clearly .. You will know them by they're fruits .They're a question whether any of the Black Popes where believers ?

Zanjan: And what did Jesus say to the fig tree?

I don't consider any person a believer who does the opposite of what their Prophet asked them to do. Lip service doesn't get strokes with me. I take each individual on face value but a group I take as a collective.

I make that choice because I decide who I want to hang out with. When the well is poisoned, that's not a place I want to be.

Blackshoes: Zanjan,, That be you're Judgement .Remenber Jesus also said too judge not less you'd be judged ..

Zanjan: He also desired that people should have a good sense of judgement........otherwise, there would be no need for Him to appeal to their common sense, asking them to reason as well. I don't judge the souls of others - that's God's job, He puts them in their place.

Mine is to know my own place and decide with whom I want to keep company - that's how we choose our religion. While opposites may attract, that's only temporary; in the end, like seeks like.

Blackshoes: God will be done .

mdfj7p: Well i am not a really religious man, nor a philosopher in fact i didnt go to high school but in my humble opinion religions, of whatever branch of humanity they came, got phylosophical structures, in such a way religions were the grandfather of philosophy it was a way to shared wisdom with the people, and that wisdom was based on moral authority in principle, love thy neighbour, share with the ones who dont have etc, so yeah i really believe that all of religions have to being based in moral principles and that is part of wisdom, wisdom that unfortunately,Just giving my opinion maam i really love religion and philosophy in fact i may try to study some zen budism

ms bossypants: I find all religions fascinating, although I am a non believer, I do not believe an individual needs religion to be a decent human being with morals.

Su Ni Chang: Bossypants...

I agree with you totally, that people do not need religion to be good humans with honourable morals and ethical values.

There is a difference between those who use religion as a guide through life in the way they were taught morals and ethics, and those who use thier religion to browbeat others, claim to be 'chosen by God', or promote excetionalism and exclusivity of God to thier beliefs, and use religion as an excuse to hurt, deprive, and deny others the basic right to define thier own destiny.

Your post is an example of the type of dialouge I hoped to promote by the title of my forum. If you noticed by reading the posts, I tryed to discourage promotion of beliefs over another.

Thank you for brining my forum back to it's orignal intention.