I think therefore I am
M3lK4t: duncan... 'actions' meaning physical & mental activity?
edricleeboneham... I could live with that logic..guess i'll find out one way or another eventually, or not as the case may be
M3lK4t: If so many people believe in something after this life...an afterllife...i am surprised there are not more people, disgruntled with their current circumstances actively seeking to become a part of the afterlife...I guess that's why religion deemed suicide a sin and law makers made it illegal. (except in some cultures)
M3lK4t: or maybe it's because of that niggling fear in the back of our minds that there is nothing after what we have here and now?
kittyfriendly: Yeah, when the brain dies, even though the body is present, you are dead. I see it as trying to remember how life was prior to being born. Can a dead man hear when he is laying down in the coffin? The bible says the " dead knows nothing".
CoIin: @ - original post
No, it doesn't follow, not at least according to the argument as formulated by Rene Descartes. Descartes envisaged reality as composed of two different kinds of "stuff"; the mental and the physical. According to Descartes, we are essentially the former.
To paraphrase, I think therefore I exist as an essentially thinking being. Thought is my essence.
The body and the brain, which belong to the physical realm, will die. The mind (or soul) is non-physical, has no extension in space, is not composed of parts, and is therefore indestructible. The death of the brain does not entail the death of "you".
This is the position known as Cartesian dualism (or substance dualism - there are two kinds of stuff).
I suspect that this form of dualism, with the possible exception of an immortal soul, is the default position of the average person in the street. It seems to accord nicely with our intuition.
You'd be hard pressed, though, to find a philosopher or scientist in this day and age who endorses the position. Material monism (there is only one kind of stuff and it's physical) is far and away the predominant position these days. Mind, therefore, must be explained in purely physical terms.
The philosopher will invoke arguments from 20th century philosophy of mind to expose the myriad difficulties associated with substance dualism, and although the position is largely rejected, the precise relationship between mind and brain is still hotly disputed. The scientist, meanwhile, will invoke advances in neuroscience which is gradually revealing the mapping between the two.
If the mind and brain do indeed belong to separate realms, it's very hard to explain why, say, probing a certain area of the brain will predictably induce similar mental events in all subjects.
I'm no expert in this, but I enjoy reading John Searle's ideas on the subject. On his account, we should regard mind as a "feature" of the brain rather than something which can exist independently of the brain. As he describes it, mind is to brain as liquidity is to water or digestion is to the stomach.
(Edited by CoIin)
"You'd be hard pressed, though, to find a philosopher or scientist in this day and age who endorses the position"
But the law says ' All actions must stop when a person is dead' meaning actions with others, banning others from acting with the deceased or his property and ' All actions much stop when that person is dead' mean if any actions continue from the deceased then he is not all dead.
Relevant in this age because many people die in their homes and remain there.
lori100: When you have been out of body , fully conscious , you know the mind exists outside of the brain......
ghostgeek: A bullet to the brain can seriously impede thought and, if the damage is extreme, stop it altogether. This suggests to me that the mind cannot exist without the brain.
ghostgeek: Without the brain there is no mind, that much seems certain to me. As for what the mind is, that seems open for debate. It seems to be something generated by the functioning brain that is yet distinct from the brain. A simple analogy, for me, is the electric light bulb. Switch it on and you get light, something not contained in the bulb itself.
Lorenz: A dead person can no-longer express himself in any know language whatsoever, it follows then that, for one to exist at least you can express yourself, and this can only be done through thinking/reasoning. hence, i think therefore, i am.
ghostgeek: If the physical body is so unimportant that it can be shed without destroying the mind why does it exist in the first place?
lori100: To experience the physical world, learn, make progress, and go to higher education....-----------------------From “The Early Sessions:” ---Seth by Jane Roberts--------------
“The child must mature, and your system is a maturing ground, a very primary one…. A beginning school…”
“The human race is a stage though which various forms of consciousness travel. Before you can be allowed into systems of reality that are more extensive and open, you must first learn to handle energy and see, through physical materialization, the concrete result of thought and emotion.”
“In more advanced systems, thoughts, and emotions are automatically and immediately translated into action, into whatever approximation of matter there exists. Therefore, the lessons must be taught and learned well. The responsibility for creation must be clearly understood.”----------------------------"Before you can be allowed into systems of reality that are more extensive and open, you must first learn to handle energy, and see, through physical materializations, the concrete result of thought and emotion. As a child forms mud pies from dirt, so you form your civilization out of thoughts and emotions, and then see what you have created, and you must deal with it on its terms."
(Edited by lori100)
ghostgeek: OK, so let's say we've been to primary school; experienced the physical world, learnt how to handle energy, see, etc, and finally popped our clogs. Where, in the grand scheme of things, do we graduate to next?
lori100: From people who travel out of body, have met highly evolved guides, and followed those who have recently died....if you have personally learned all you need to learn , and corrected your mistakes...you don't need to return to the physical world....you can experience many non-physical dimensions, and /or help others still in the physical world....some stay to help friends/family ...others.....some are just addicted to physical life.....
ghostgeek: Let's say we've got our ethereal jim-jams on and have said to adieu to the physical realm. What non-physical dimension do we sail off to next?
ghostgeek: So what is a non-physical dimension? It sounds rather nebulous. Where exactly does it exist?
lori100: all around you....you exist in non-physical dimen. and physical at the same time....it seems no one knows exactly how many non-physical dimensions there are....
ghostgeek: It sounds nice, and it would be wonderful if you were right Lori, but I am by nature skeptical and I doubt what you say. There are so many claims about what befalls us after death that I must say "Maybe, or maybe not." Still, that apart, if you could explain a little more what a non-physical dimension is, I would be grateful. I take it you don't mean one of those higher dimensions physicists talk about when they rattle on about Superstring theory and the like?