Capitalism Vs. Socialism (Page 5)

john1576: David, are you seriously saying Michael Moor invented the Health Crisis faced by loyal, patriotic Americans who served their country in the aftermath of Twin Towers collapse? Hundreds of these fine Americans face crippling Medical Bills and you cannot be bothered to even be aware of their plight? The real problem these good people face, is that Washington and New York City dispute who is liable for their Medical Bills. Washington says New York declared the area of Ground Zero to be a 'Safe Work Environment' with regards to the air quality. If that is proven to be untrue, then the City must face the Bill, likely to be 150 million dollars a year for some years ahead.

davidk14: John Said: David, are you seriously saying Michael Moor invented the Health Crisis faced by loyal, patriotic Americans who served their country in the aftermath of Twin Towers collapse?

David says: No, that is not what I said. I said firefighters as well as every American has insurance while on the job. This insurance is called Workman's Compensation Insurance Fund (WC). While working on the job, the employee files a claim and this insurance pays the bills and the employee never pays a dime or uses their private insurance carrier. Unless disputed by the employer for fraud, WC always pays the medical bills. Moore, a radical progressive ultra leftist, took advantage of some firefighters to advance his twisted agenda against the American Health Care System, which is the finest in the world.

John said: Hundreds of these fine Americans face crippling Medical Bills and you cannot be bothered to even be aware of their plight?

David said: Again, you are wrong. Where did I say, suggest, wink, use body or sign language to even refer or suggest that I was not bothered by their plight? These firemen and police men are part of our first responders brotherhood and are American hero's just like our military. And again, while on the job, the Workers Compensation Insurance Fund provides funds for current and future medical bills as well as any rehabilitation or other expenses due to the injury if the person is unable to return to work. Again, to make this perfectly clear, this fund covers "all Americans". If there is any sort of short term or permanent damage, this fund also pays for all rehab expenses including training for a new job if the person is unable to return to the job that they had at the time of the injury. This fund also pays the employee up to 100% of their salary as well. Again, this is not a government program and is funded by the employer.

John said: The real problem these good people face, is that Washington and New York City dispute who is liable for their Medical Bills. Washington says New York declared the area of Ground Zero to be a 'Safe Work Environment' with regards to the air quality. If that is proven to be untrue, then the City must face the Bill, likely to be 150 million dollars a year for some years ahead

David said: The WC Fund has nothing to do with city, state or federal government. No one who is sane suggest or thinks or even suggests the air quality at ground zero was acceptable with all of the drywall, plaster, fireproofing, jet fuel, and numberous other hazerdous chemicals which were cleaned up. Remember the cloud that hung over Manhattan for weeks? Someone might have said the air quality was acceptable "after" the site was cleaned up. No politican or government offical who is sane would get involved about money regarding what is due to these American hero's.

What is of current and serious concern to the world is the collapse of the economy of Greece and potential economic collapse of Portugal, Ireland, Italy, and Spain. Greece is supposed to get $140 billion dollars but first must put into place a reasonable and executable plan to trim its massive entitlement programs by billions of dollars before receiving the loan. This small country is in debt $400 billion dollars and at the cliff of defaulting on its current bank loans. The folks of Greece are not at all happy about giving up any of the entitlements that were promised as the riots have shown. Also with the Euro becomeing weak doesn't help either.

john1576: David. Again, where the heck are you getting your 'facts' from. Do you not know hundreds of these hero's are struggling to get medical Bills recognised as the responsibility of State or City Authorities. Do a Web search. And why are these Americans, who are true hero's, and a credit to their country, even having to run around looking for assistance?

davidk14: John,
Regarding the topic, 911 and the aftermath created a situation that no one had ever could have beleived, imagined, and totally unprepared for the aftermath. From the numberous web-sites to the New England Journal of Medicine the rules changed.

There were 10,870 firefighters and 1911 EMS workers that worked on and off the clock during the rescue and clean-up effort. Many of these folks were evaluated as "over exposed" due to the time they spent their while "off" the clock. In this situation, written rules dictate Workers Comp does not cover the lung injury. On the other side, their was a lung transplant for Firefighter Lt. Fullam that was paid 100% and all recovery expenses because documentation showed that he only was on the recovery site while "on" the clock.

There were studies that showed smokers or past smokers lungs were already in poor shape and the air quality just devistated them. The non-smokers were not as injured or no injuries at all

There were people that volunteered at the site from all over the US that are now claiming they got ill because of the work they did during the recovery and cleanup. Documentation and medical records are shotty at best. Determining validity a nightmare.

The government set up a fund of $1 billion dollars to coverall the claims. The short end of this is sorting out the ligitimate claims from the illegitimate ones. Numberous claims being considered are from "volunteer" firefighter and non-firefighters and those wanting "restitution" even filing suits against the government for not protecting them from the planes hitting the buildings.

There claims that were pending for "alternative" medical treatments as well which are outside of the FDA scope of approved treatments.

Besides the $1 billion dollar government fund to support Workers Comp and other claims, there are dozens of other private organizations that are providing millions of dollars to people. Their issue is the same as the governments, which claims are real and which are not.

As soon as the $1 billion dollars was anounced, people started to file claims that could not prove they were even in NY. Lawyers starting seeing huge paydays.

The issue is not about being cheap. Its about the lack of documentation, lack of medical records, lack of post-preparedness for this type of disaster, lack of case studies to determine exactly the disease. Its a very complicated topic.

There were claims for post distress disorder without medical issues.

There were also "no claims" from 1000's of people that worked on and off the clock. There were minimal lung injury claims from people that lived in a one mile radius.

There were lung injuries claims to non-city workers where the debris was sorted. And also, there were no claims as well.

Fraud and abuse...fraud and abuse...Keeps the good folks from getting what they deserve.

I located a valid firefighters fund set-up by family memebers and will call them Monday to get a point of view that web-pages can not. I'll get back to you.

john1576: Fair enough David you have cleared up many points. It will interesting to hear what the families of these brave women and men say to you when you speak to them.

davidk14: Just reading about what the "cloud" and clean-up consisted of which caused the lung damage. Plaster, drywall, foam, rubber, jet fuel, fireproofing, concrete, computers, desks, chair foam and covering materials, carpet, carpet padding, paint, and an sortment of other materials....and the tons and tons of glass windows all of which were ground into fine powder and crystal. A mixture of the perfect storm for lung complications. The masks that were actually needed were the type used for chemical and biological warfare, not only for the people cleaning up, but also for the millions of men, women and children living and visiting in the NY area who breathed in this toxic slurry. Many of the claims are for lack of proper breathing equipment available at the time.

Perhaps a billion dollars is an underestimate as time goes on for the people less effected at the time of the disaster.

john1576: Again fair enough. In England a disaster such as 911 would have been seen as an outstanding opportunity to apply Julian Huxley's recommendations for allocating medical resources. Any one with even a spark of human decency would find that method offencive.

dave3974: was not part of the problem ,the order from the mayors administraion not to wear suitable masks -- as they wanted to pretend things where more under controlthan they were.
Subsequently a lot of personnel had a high exposure to asbestos.[[[[[[[ the poor procedures of the fire fighters senior officers have a lot to answer for too.

davidk14: John,
I called the woman who is an advocate for NY 9/11 Firefighters at Firefightersfund.org. We spoke for 1/2 an hour. Many of the questions I asked she didnt know, many of the comments I wrote previously she agreed with. She also provided a few suggestions where to continue. What we did talk about was what her "specialty" in regards to the health and welfare of the 911 Firefighters specifically.

Her speciality, advocating for 40 firefighters who developed Post Traumatic Distress Syndrome. These 40 firefighters were terminated for drug and alcohol abuse. Their lung illnesses were identified after their termination and therefore, Workman's Comp would not cover. Their private insurance would only cover so much and these firefighters now have huge medical bills as well as other economic and emotional problems.

We discussed the $1 billion dollar fund I mentioned. She didnt know alot about it did send me to another advocate working on this subject.
____________________________________________________________________

I then went to the John Feel Good Foundation which supports Rep. Frank Pallone Jr. (D-6th District) working toward a bill providing health care benefits.


“H.R. 847 would establish the World Trade Center Health Program, a permanent program to screen, monitor and treat eligible responders and survivors who are suffering from World Trade Center-related diseases,”

“It would direct the Department of Health and Human Services to conduct and support research into new conditions that may be related to the attacks and to evaluate different and emerging methods of diagnosis and treatment.

"The Obama administration has not supported the bill thus far."

“We have to educate the president on the importance of this bill. This is not a Republican or Democratic issue, it is an American issue.”

"The proposed bill would cover more than 30,000 9/11 first responders and residents who were near or at the World Trade Center in New York City."

"Rep. Pallone said last week’s vote (real time) is a good indication that the nearly $11 (eleven) billion bill will pass the necessary steps to become law."

"Advocates of a federal bill guaranteeing health care for life for Sept. 11 first responders breathed a collective sigh of relief last week as the bill took a crucial step forward."

So what I learned, a vote will be coming shortly to provide $11 (eleven) Billion dollars to responders and anyone else who was injured directly or indirectly. The 40 firefighters would also be covered. The report from the New England Journal of Medicine also includes the DTDS.

According to this foundation, 830 people, firefighters and civilians have died due to illnesses caused by the attack.

Another item which caught my eye on another site regarding the dust (included not only building materials ie: plaster, drywall, glass, etc. and jet fuel, etc.) the dust cloud included small traces of asbestos which in any quantity is disturbing. When all of these elements are broken down into their chemical components, the dust is considered by some, a "Chemical Weapon". So not only did the planes do horrific damage, some consider the aftermath, a secondary chemical weapons attack

This health issue will effect many lives for decades to come.

The sooner HR 847 becomes law, the better.

john1576: Well done David for taking the trouble to get in touch with the heroes of 911. The self sacrifice and patriotism of those guys will live in the memory of us all. After all the suffering and pain, I can't believe some worthless piece of sh*t tried continue the suffering of New Yorkers by putting a bomb in Times Square.

davidk14: John,
Recently, we've had three bombing attempts where the bombs failed to explode. We had the Fort Hood shootings where a dozen died and 31 were injured. All performed in the name of the same ideology.

Outbackjack: "You: You [David] cite one source.

Me: At least I site a source."

All you can do is cite the first random source that you can pick up off Google.
One source is entirely insufficient when trying to understand the different tendencies of Socialism/Marxism.There are Marxists,Leninists,Maoists,Stalinists,Trotskyists,Anarchosyndicalists and another thousand variants within them.

Its like me citing the Sheriff of Nottingham as a sole reference of how Capitalism works.

"Me: What you call copy and paste is actually called quoting sources word for word. If you disagree with the source, thats fine, but I dont understand why you attack me and not the source. Even books have references quoting sources. You may not agree, but you dont attack the author for quoting the source."

I would like to hear your opinions and not always what others have posted on the internet.Theres nothing wrong with sources but if you dont understand something then its pointless just citing things randomly off the internet.

"Me: So you disaree with Lenin's quote?"

Of course I disagree with Lenins quote.Not all Socialists want Communism.That is obvious.

"Me: Doesnt mean that its the right thing to do(Atlee).

Whether its right or wrong thats for you to decide.I posted a basic history of some events in the history of Socialism V Capitalism and have purposefully tried to just show the facts.

Atlee took over a Britain that had been ravaged by war.The economy was almost bankrupt and people were still living with ration books.
Atlee realised that there was a lot of sympathy for Communism especially now that its alter ego,Nazi fascism,had been wiped out.
The people were war weary and wanted more say and ownership in their countries assets as they had already spilled a lot of blood for their country.

With Eastern Europe being slowly taken over by the Communists he realised that there was a real danger of it spreading to the west.Atlee chartered a middle road via Democratic Socialism that Nationalised essential services(mining,railways,electricity etc).This blunted a lot of the Marxists attack.This also ironically gave the conservatives to didvide the country and take government.But when they did take government it should be noted they did not repeal the Nationalisation acts for another 30 years.

When privatisation occured under Margaret Thacther it was a disaster.Britain, around the world,was renowned for its great infrastructure.
You need only ride a train in Britain today to see how bad things are now.

"You: Are you trying to claim that the Nazis were not Fascists?

Me: Of course not. Fascism starts somewhere and we know how that story ended."

So what are you really trying to say?

"Me: Dont undersand how you can think that since "...which resulted in Argentina's record for its inefficiency, bankrupt civil services, profitless industries". How can you have the highest standard of living with these issues?"

I am surprised at this statement David?
If the working class still has access to high wages then of course the standard of living can still be high.

Outbackjack: "Regarding the 911 medical situation, obviously you have not been made aware, it was purely a Michael Moore propaganda. Are you trying to say that the firemen did not have insurance through their unions for American hospitls, the finest in the world? Just think about that."

Okay then.
Why did they go to Cuba?

"Me: Now, the issue for me here is that socilization, or as the new term beng thrown around, "Social Justice" doesn't work. Entitlement programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid are bankrupt. Here are a few issues why. There's not enough Americans employed even when unemployment is at 4% to keep these programs solvent. Yesterday, national unemployment went up from 9.7% to 9.9%. The baby boomers within the next 10 years, approx. 60 million people are starting to apply for these entitlemnt programs . The workforce will shrink and that doesnt take into account the 30 million un-insured that will a large portion will be applying for as well."

These are bankrupt(medicare etc) because governments have allowed them become bankrupt.Plain and simple.
Just have to look at the way taxes on Big business(Capitalists) have been decreased over the last 30 years.The Capitalists,as you know,have powerful lobbyists in Washington.
The government has been worn down over the years and caved into the Capitalists.Obviously combined with a shrinking workforce(in some countries) this has compounded the problem.I will give you an example.In Australia the Capitalists pay about $30 billion less a year in Corporate tax than in 1982.Thats $30 billion in 1982 dollars.
The government is now levying,to pay for its social programs,the mining industry.
In Australia we have free universal healthcare.
You seem opposed to universal healthcare.

Why?

"Look at Greece, a cradle to grave entitlement culture. Dont worry, dont save money, the government will take care of you. Look at the riots. These folks were way over promised and under delivered. Retirement at 53, full benefits for life, two month salary bonus per year, free medical for life. And when the government decides to try and fix the issue with a 3 year austerity measures, they go nuts. Greece, the small little county that it is, is $400 Billion in debt and currently at 115% of its GDP. It needs to borrow $140 billion dollars from the IMF and other EU countries immediately that just dont have it. The IMF biggest contributor? The USA at 17% which is over triple of any other country in the world. So my tax dollars, needs to help bail Greece out."

The sharks are circling in Greece.
The IMF being at the head.
This money should never have been lent in the first place.
The IMF will just walk and demand that a whole country bows down and does what it says.It is effectively controlling a whole country through debt slavery.
Your taxpayer dollars are all helping the Capitalists in Greece acheive more control(free trade agreements,privatisation etc).

But why are you complaining?

The Capitalists caused all the mess you have in the U.S now and you the taxpayer are still paying(bailouts) for their greed.

Communism is nearly dead (hopefully).

You need to look at the real beast of Capitalism for what it is.Especially now it no longer has a counter economic model and can act with absolute impunity.

Capitalism will eventually consume itself.

john1576: Jack. Don't count on Capitalism destroying itself. One of the reasons the Conservatives in Britain lost their last cycle in Government was that even the brain dead Torie supporters finally realised the population was emigrating en mass, and the lower classes were so unhealthy and uneducated they were becoming practically useless as an exploitable unit that they had to change direction and bring in Mr Blair. The Golden Rule of the successful parasite is that it does not kill off it's host. Lady Thatcher and Mr Major forgot that.

Outbackjack: Perhaps John.

But the Parasite nearly destroyed its host in the Global Financial crisis of 2008.

john1576: Jack. Am going off topic here but am interested in your take on this. A guy was commenting on Sirhan Sirhan's trial and saying that he should have pleaded 'self defence' in the American Court. The reasoning was, Bobby Kennedy had gone out of his way to promise to supply 50 Phantom Jet's to Israel. Sirhan Sirhan still had family and friends in Israel in Palestinian Refugee Camps. Regrettably we all know Israel does use these weapons at times against Palestinians. When Sirhan Sirhan shot RFK he was (so the premise goes) acting to protect his family. What do you say Jack.

CandyRivers: John says,
"Jack. Don't count on Capitalism destroying itself. One of the reasons the Conservatives in Britain lost their last cycle in Government was that even the brain dead Torie supporters finally realised the population was emigrating en mass, and the lower classes were so unhealthy and uneducated they were becoming practically useless as an exploitable unit that they had to change direction and bring in Mr Blair. The Golden Rule of the successful parasite is that it does not kill off it's host. Lady Thatcher and Mr Major forgot that".

I say, John are you mentally ill, or do you have a brain tumour or are you starting with Altzheimers. Because if your posts are anything to do with the above then from now on I will leave you alone. However, if you are just lying and once again using the facts pulled out of your arse, then you deserve to be called on it.
What mass emmigration are you talking about. Do you forget that there are other british people on this site who can see through the rubbish you spout when you try and pretend to know things.

Outback, you dont know me, so get your sensible friend Geoff to have a look at this, let him tell you what he thinks.

Asshat, go back to your posts about vampires and werewolves, leave the talking to sensible men.

john1576: To the person above, (whome I shall not lower myself to address). I do not answer questions put to me in such a manner, and certainly not from such as you.

CandyRivers: you are a disgusting human being and you know it. BTW still waiting for the authorities to catch up with me.

john1576: The only disgusting person here is you. Find some one else to aim your shameful and despicable accusations at.

CandyRivers: blah blah blah *insert I believe in nonsense here, vampires, werewolves ghosts* blah blah blah
I know for a fact that the queen is a lizard, blah blah blah

Outbackjack: I dont know what is going on between you Candy and John.I probalbly dont want to know.

The last time I was in the U.K was 1994.I was in South Yorkshire.There was a real sense of hopelessness there at the time.The mines were nearly all shut and the steel industry was dead.I had a job that paid 2 pounds an hour and lost that when the local colliery shut.

People were emigrating if they could.
Put it this way.
I came home.

CandyRivers: largest emmigration figures was 400,000 in 2006.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/emig1107.pdf

but remember the uk population is 61.4 million in 2008

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=6

Unlike Asshat, I will back up what I say.

Outbackjack: I dont doubt that your figures are right.

A lot of people in North were getting out one way or another.

Down south or overseas.

CandyRivers: yes the majority do go to australia.