Health Care (Page 3)
Chrono said: Where Private Business falls flat on its face is trying to run schools, hospitals, prisons, post offices, railroads, public transport in cities. These 'businesses' are essential services you have no choice in using for the most part. If I was sending my kids to a school in Arizona, I would like to think the school was run in the interests of students and staff, not for a profit.
David said: I sent my three daughters to privately run Charter Schools. The schools received money for each one of my daughters from the government. This amount of money was HALF of what it takes to pay per child in a public school. My daughters received wonderful educations and scored well above the public schools. So don’t speak about a topic you have not researched.
Chrono said: The whole problem with Privatizing Public Services is that Private Companies just 'Cherry Pick' the profitable departments of those Services leaving Politicians with expensive loss making departments that would have been subsidized by the profitable departments. People respond; 'well the Politicians should just Axe those departments'. How the hell do Politicians explain to the voters that they are dumping, kids, hospital patients, prisoners, closing roads etc because there is no money to run the school, prison, or hospital?.
David said: Again you have no idea what you are talking about. One of my daughters is certified by the state in law enforcement, works for a private jail system, which has been certified by the state which also has oversight. This facility is cleaner, better organized, better run, run cheaper by the private company than a state facility. My son in-law is a cop and verifies this statement.
I’ve just shown you two privately run “businesses” which do a better job than the government. Name just one US government run “business” that has run a better operation. You can’t.
chronology: Mr David. First, all my respect and regards for your daughter. God Bless her, let's hope she has a successful life. I have seen Arizona's Prisons on T.V. here in Europe. Women forced to sleep in Tents in Winter, manacled in leg irons forced to pick up garbage in the streets. Am sure those American Girls have no resentment at all for being caged in such conditions. As for the schools system. Well yes, there are systems like that in Europe. Promising, hard working girls like your daughter are chosen by the schools, low achievers from disturbed homes and coping with poverty are left behind in the State schools. Now which system will turn out best? Kind of like having a boxing match with one guy having his hands tied behind his back.
Chrono said: I have seen Arizona's Prisons on T.V. here in Europe. Women forced to sleep in Tents in Winter, manacled in leg irons forced to pick up garbage in the streets. Am sure those American Girls have no resentment at all for being caged in such conditions.
David said: Tent city was created by Sherriff Joe for male occupants only because of overcrowding and winter here is a chilly 75 F. The tents were set up so that the “convicted felons” serve their entire sentence instead of being cut loose into society without serving their punishment. Regarding the “chain gangs”, Sherriff Joe was criticized for not being sexist when only men were on the chain gangs. So now, equal punishment under the law for men AND women. Believe it or not, the inmates sign up for this duty. They enjoy it.
Chrono said: As for the schools system. Well yes, there are systems like that in Europe. Promising, hard working girls like your daughter are chosen by the schools, low achievers from disturbed homes and coping with poverty are left behind in the State schools. Now which system will turn out best? Kind of like having a boxing match with one guy having his hands tied behind his back.
David said: The Charter Schools here do not discriminate against anyone. Parents can sign up their children no matter what race, creed, color, religious or political affiliation or financial background they might be. Equal education under the law.
One of my daughters in Charter School (10th to 12th grades) became so far ahead of her classmates that the charter school paid for her to go to a junior college to take advanced classes. When this daughter graduated from the two year Junior College with two AS degrees (biology and chemistry), she graduated two weeks later from her Charter School (High School). She never would have had this opportunity in a public school. And ya know what? It cost the tax payer less as well. The other two daughters did very well indeed.
chronology: Congratulations on your daughters Mr David, they sound like good kids. Problem with children is that if they do not have good parents like you, they are in big trouble. Children are totally dependant on their community. If you ever get into a philosophical talk with your daughter, she may tell you the same as a Prison Officer here said to me one time. I asked him if he was bothered working with Prisoners, he said; 'I don't blame them for what they are. They never had a normal childhood. They do not behave properly, because they do not know how to behave. Most of them do not know who their fathers are, the mothers are trash for the most part'.
By the way Mr David. 'Big Up' to the Navy Guys at Flagstaff for their contribution to our understanding of Pluto. Their discovery of Pluto's Moon Charon was conscientious work. It puzzled me why the Navy had an Observatory there. Then I discovered they were keeping Ultra Accurate Time Standards for the D.O.D. So well done to the Guys, (and Girls) there.
davidk14: Chrono...Here I must agree. The stories my daughter tells me...I get sick sometimes. These unfortunate teens and young adults will be scared for the rest of their lifes with little hope for returning into society as good people. Most will die violent deaths at an early age. Very, very sad. The breakdown of the family structure is a main reason for these issues.
Outbackjack: In an ideal world Chrono we would trust our government to be able to run everything.I know this isnt the case and there needs to be some balance.
Though government should run essential services.
I disagree with private enterprise being better in Telecommunications.They privatised Telecom here and our networks have gone backwards 20 years.But dont get me started on that lol.
Wampum,do you actually have anything to add to these discussions or are you happy to sit back and throw in abstract statements when you dont like the conversation?
Its funny David how you talk about privatised prisons.In Western Australia they are costing us more and have turned out to be the worst kind of bastardry.
Heres what a private prison contractor did.Another great example of a private contractor saving a buck by not doing maintenance.Again it led to someones death:
West Australian federal MP Melissa Parke has called for a royal commission into the treatment of Aborigines by the state's justice system.
The Fremantle MP said the death in custody case of an Aboriginal elder known as Mr Ward showed the need for a royal commission into the administration of justice involving Aboriginal people.
Mr Ward, whose full name cannot be used for cultural reasons, died in the back of a prison van on the 360 kilometre journey from Laverton to Kalgoorlie in January 2008. The van was contracted to prison security company G4S.
Due to a broken air conditioner, Mr Ward to endure temperatures above 50 degrees during the four-hour, non-stop journey to face a drink-driving charge in court.
Ms Parke said the state coroner found that Mr Ward "had suffered a terrible death while in custody which was wholly unnecessary and avoidable".
However, Director of Public Prosecutions Joe McGrath announced criminal charges would not be laid over Mr Ward's death.
"The circumstances of Mr Ward's death, just 18 days before the National Apology to Indigenous Australians, demand both justice and accountability," the Labor MP wrote on website wangle.com.au.
"Accountability not simply on the part of the two G4S drivers involved, who, apart from any legal liability, showed an abysmal lack of human decency, but also on the part of the police, Corrective Services, the Department of the Attorney-General and the multinational company G4S."
The former United Nations lawyer said the Mr Ward case was an "extreme example of systemic failure".
Ms Parke said that in 1901 WA MP Hugh Mahon moved a motion calling for a royal commission into the conditions of Aboriginal people in WA and the administration of justice in the lower courts of the state.
"Mr Ward's terrible and unnecessary death and the accompanying accountability vacuum shows we still need the royal commission Hugh Mahon called for more than a hundred years ago," she said.
The government protects the Corporation from Manslaughter charges.
If you treated animals like this the RSPCA would be involved and charges would be laid.
chronology: Mr Outback. The same type of complaint is made in Europe about Privatized Prisons. Anecdotally, Privatized Prisons in England are said to select the docile, inadequate Prisoners with little backbone, easy to handle. Violent, disruptive, and Prisoners who stand up for themselves are shoveled into H.M.P.s sucking up Prison Officers time and Prison Money. Privatized Prisons are a breeze in comparison.
Wampum6: Outback. I'll continue to make comments as I choose, pro and con. I do
not have the time that some of the rest of you have. Some of you do very nicely at researching and assembling your ideas. I appreciate that. As you know, however, I am both pleased and displeased with what I read sometimes. And I will sometimes comment, even tersely.
chronology: Wampum. Time, time, time, there is never enough or too much. I was talking a few hours ago to David about the super accurate Time Calculations at Flagstaff. Curiously, (to me), I was also looking at a watch brought up from the wreck of the Titanic. The Guy who was wearing that probably never dreamed his watch would end up in the Maritime Museum in London, (or that he and it would first end up on the floor of the Atlantic). Funny old world.
Hey Mr David. You are a loyal G.O.P. man. Would you say the Reconstruction Period in American History was the 'Finest Moment' of the Republican Party, or whatever. Whenever we think of Republicans today, they are dismissed as the Mouthpieces of Business. But the Reconstruction Era, actually saw the G.O.P. as one of the most Progressive and innovative Political Parties on Earth. The Democrats won back the Laural for 'Outstanding Innovators' for the New Deal. Let's always remember there was a time when Republicans were dragged out of their homes and bullwhipped by the Klan for defending the Rights of Black Folks. (Am I dreaming, or dead or something, or did THAT really happen?)
Jst a quick reply at this time. I'm not nor have I ever stated that I am a Republican since a few of their talking points I do not agree with. I would say though that I am a conservative American to the right of center. I sort of tired right now and will respond tomorrow. Also, while I'm here, regarding Outback statements on privatizing specifically prisons, not all prisons that are privatized here are doing well. As with any organization, with any government, with any company, it's all about management. I have been apart of some great companies with great ethics inmanageing and some real dirt bag organizations which I did not last very long. See ya all tomorrow....night.
hottriplej: This Is hot's wife Quite an interesting forum..... ? It appears to me that while there is alot of discussion about the subject there is no one who is offering a reasonable and objective alternative. Diverse dialog is important but not just for the sake of hearing your own voice. There's alot of meandering. I don't think anyone here is listening to one another. On the other hand I'm just Hot's wife
chronology: Hots wife. Mr David has clearly and often with great detail stated what he wants to see enacted in U.S. Politics. Mr Outback has also passionately stated his plans for the economy. I have stated time and again my middle of the road approach. It is a little unfair to say people are malingering here. This is after all a 'Forum'.
LiptonCambell: Maybe I wasn't clear by my statements. You said a business, holding a monoploy, blackmailed the Government. I'm saying that, in your perfect world, the Government would be blackmailing businesses. Hell, lets cut the shit here- its doing it now.
You complain that this business is courrpt- are you actually taking the stance that the Government isn't already courrpt??
>>>Governments should own essential services so we are not held hostage by private corporations who have a captive market and just ramp up the prices for the sole pursuit of profit.
HOW IS A GOVERNMENT MONOPOLY SOMEHOW BETTER THAN A PRIVATE ONE?
Lets be perfectly clear here- you are outlining the flaws of a monopoly, then say if we simply let someone else run the monopoly, the inherit flaws of a monopoly will somehow go away. Whether a monopoly is run by government or the private sector, it will have the same flaws of "holding the people hostage"
>>>Nationalisation allows money to ACTUALLY go into taxpayers pockets as opposed to money flowing out to prop up essential maintainance infrastructure
>>>It also provides more jobs
How do you suppose?
>>>Everytime something is privatised the first thing they do is slash jobs in the pursuit of profit and so called "efficiency".
You mean when its turned from government run to privatized? Wouldn't that imply that Government run "businesses" are inefficent?
Outbackjack: "Maybe I wasn't clear by my statements. You said a business, holding a monoploy, blackmailed the Government. I'm saying that, in your perfect world, the Government would be blackmailing businesses. Hell, lets cut the shit here- its doing it now.
You complain that this business is courrpt- are you actually taking the stance that the Government isn't already courrpt??"
The business in question which owned the grain rail network cryed poor and threatened to close down a heap more of the rail network which was their responsibility.The business which owned the network got the media involved and because it involved food security and the safety of motorists out here.The whole public howled at the government to do something.
You see the government is accountable at the ballot box whereas the private corporation isnt.Otherwise if the corporation could be held to account they would have been by the public.
So I dont know where you are going with this(as usual).
What do you suggest?
The public stops eating bread in protest?
"HOW IS A GOVERNMENT MONOPOLY SOMEHOW BETTER THAN A PRIVATE ONE?
Lets be perfectly clear here- you are outlining the flaws of a monopoly, then say if we simply let someone else run the monopoly, the inherit flaws of a monopoly will somehow go away. Whether a monopoly is run by government or the private sector, it will have the same flaws of "holding the people hostage" "
Like I have explained above.An arrogant government who holds the public hostage will be tossed out at the next election.Plain and simple.
So there is a huge difference.
">>>Nationalisation allows money to ACTUALLY go into taxpayers pockets as opposed to money flowing out to prop up essential maintainance infrastructure
>>>It also provides more jobs
How do you suppose?"
Lets put this in a language that you might be able to understand.
If the U.S government nationalises McDonalds then all the profits that McDonalds makes goes to the U.S government.
Is that simple enough for you.
">>>Everytime something is privatised the first thing they do is slash jobs in the pursuit of profit and so called "efficiency".
You mean when its turned from government run to privatized? Wouldn't that imply that Government run "businesses" are inefficent?"
If inefficient means sacking maintenance people to save a lousy buck,which in turn leads to more deaths,then I guess that is efficient.
I am sure the Undertakers are quite efficient at taking the extra orders too.
Wampum6: Just a comment. I happen to think that Hott and his wife at least share that ID from time to time. In a sense, that is a sign of a partnership, and I dare say they probably don't always agree! More power to them, and to the value it may have for the rest of us.
chronology: Mr Outback. You are correct about the lack of staff causing problems. The humiliating Blackout of the East Coast Electricity Grid a few years ago could have been prevented and rectified sooner with more staff. Mr David will now no doubt provide you with pages of Data explaining why it was not a real problem. Like Wall Street, Katrina, Enron, Berney Madoff, Uninsured Health Care people, rising Heath Care Insurance costs for people who are ensured. Take it away David, Why was America's East Coast Blacked out with no Electricity for days a few years back? I think it was 2003.
Wampum6: Chrono -
Perhaps the electrical failure of a few years ago could have been dealt with by a more diligent, more capable staff(I think so). I don't necessarily think that just pouring more staff into the situation could have or would have done away with the likelihood of an outage. If we are talking about the same outage, I believe that the cause was blatant error, but I could be wrong.
Chrono said: Mr Outback. You are correct about the lack of staff causing problems. The humiliating Blackout of the East Coast Electricity Grid a few years ago could have been prevented and rectified sooner with more staff.
Wampum said: Perhaps the electrical failure of a few years ago could have been dealt with by a more diligent, more capable staff(I think so). I don't necessarily think that just pouring more staff into the situation could have or would have done away with the likelihood of an outage. If we are talking about the same outage, I believe that the cause was blatant error, but I could be wrong.
In February 2004, the U.S.-Canada Power System Outage Task Force released their final report, placing the main cause of the blackout on FirstEnergy Corporation's failure to trim trees in part of its Ohio service area. The report states that a generating plant in Eastlake, Ohio (a suburb of Cleveland) went offline amid high electrical demand, putting a strain on high-voltage power lines (located in a distant rural setting) which later went out of service when they came in contact with "overgrown trees". The cascading effect that resulted ultimately forced the shutdown of more than 100 power plants.
Another conspiracy theory shot down.
hottriplej: thanks wampum,,,,,,,,,she is truly the love of my life,,,,,,,,,politically,,,,,I think I can cure her though,,,,,,,,
chronology: Mr David. I may be wrong. But one of the reasons the outage was so severe and prolonged was that Electricity suppliers replaced dedicated in House Electrical Engineers with Agency staff who could be used 'as and when required'. I may be wrong there, but that is what some one told me. What you had was a Domino Effect of Computers, Substations, Power-lines failures. Normally the Agency staff would just go to where they were needed, but with every one screaming for help and no in House staff to cope, the Utilities just lay dead in the water. Agency electricians could only repair one job at a time.
Chrono: You may be right, I may be crazy…
Has there been as serious a power failure as back in 2004? Don’t think so. Perhaps you may be right and lack of personnel was the cause. Maybe next time it will be Mrs. O’Donnell’s cat that will be the cause.
LiptonCambell: >>>In an ideal world Chrono we would trust our government to be able to run everything.I know this isnt the case and there needs to be some balance. Though government should run essential services.
I've been pondering this comment for some time....I mean, what, exactly, is an "essential service"? You disregarded the postal service as something that can be privatized successfully- that isn't an essential service, apparently. But what about other goods and services?
I mean, if I were to make a list of essential services, food would be pretty high on that list. But that's privatized. Shelter, again, high on the list, and again, privatized. Communications, such as internet, television, newspapers, telephone and radios, all privatized. Electricity is a huge essential service in urban areas, as is water- and its been privatized successfully. Clothing is a huge private business that the vast majority of people could not live without. Personal Hygiene Products, another good example.
So what is an essential service? And if the Government -SHOULD- support essential services, then why are so many essential services successfully privatized?
Lipton said: So what is an essential service? And if the Government -SHOULD- support essential services, then why so many essential services are successfully privatized?
David responds: Good questions. We have a number of different government “layers” which tax citizens at different rates. Perhaps we should look at the question as this:
What should the Federal Government essential services include?
What should the State Government essential services include?
What should the County Government essential services include?
What should the City Governments essential services include?