Hamas says committed to mutual truce with Israel (Page 2)

FogofWar: Many Palestinians and Jews in Israel would agree with you on that one.

Animal Lover: David, you are very correct. That is the first thing they need to get their heads around.
Hammas does not recognise Israel's right to exist. Neither does Iran, currently. Thank God Israel has the best military in the World.

Yan, I reckon the reason the Indians did not like Israel being created is because they were still smarting from the most prosperous area of India - Lahore and the Punjab - being given to the Muslims as part of Pakistan.

albasry: first of all i live in the meddle east and i know the situation of other side that i dont notice it much here.

if we want to understand we should know how Palestinian think
and thats what i am talked about.

"FogofWar"

you talk like there are 2 countries (israel and palestine) and the palestinan attack israel so israel resist attacks.
its not like that , there was no israel
an then zionism and uk make it a state after years of attacking palestinians and bring jews which Europe and European dont want them
to palestian.
so the real "attack" and the real problem was making a country called israel in an palestinian land.


"davidk14"

i am talking about how hamas and many palestinians and arabs think.
so you think that the best way for some one take 3/4 of your homes is to ask him or lets say "negotiate" him to give you 10% of the 3/4 of your home.


Yan26
its not about Jews and Muslims
its about Zionism and land owners

FogofWar: Albasry, it is a matter of two "counties"…even though one is not a country; Israel just treats it like it is. They gave Palestinians the option of living in Israel; or having their own land. They gave them their own land; and have made countless attempts to negotiate peace; including giving up half of their sacred capital city; and the holiest ground in Jewish faith; because they know it means something to the Palestinians. What has Hamas done to achieve peace? Suicide bomb nightclubs full of teenagers? Really peaceful huh?

Albasry, you talk like Palestine was actually a country. Guess what; it wasn't. It was a land that the British owned; and let Palestinians live in for helping them in WWI. It was a mandate; NOT a country…and if you want to play the 'we had it first' card; then in all reality; the Jews had it like 1000 years BEFORE Islam existed. It was the Jewish holy land; and it wasn't until the Islamic movement took over the Middle East; that the Jews lost that land. They have always been there; even when it was Palestine.

Your antisemitic ideals might fly in Iraq; but not here. The Jews never took their homes; it was Jewish land before Palestinians even existed; and antisemitism does not give them the right to take it away.

It's not about Zionism and land owners; it's about Islamic people that are incapable of tolerance. Don't be one of them. Many Muslims are able to accept that the Jewish faith has a right to exist; maybe you should too.

albasry: zionism israel wasnt there and there are no israeli
palestine was and will be and there was (muslim, Jewish, christian) palstenian.
British occupate palestine under the name of mandate
and the palestinians of WWI you talked about were muslims christians and jewishs so again its not about religion as you trying to show.
about your playing card first and again its not like what you are trying to show its not about religion, its about demographic changes happened in a period and the way of how its happened, and how hundred of thousends of palestinians throw out of there land.

its so funny that i have a "antisemitic ideals" as you said
while i am semitic.
and its strange that any one who talk about the zionisim israel
well be anti-jewish
i dont know what about the Jewish who dont belive in "zionisim israel" will they be "antisemitic" ?
again mr fogowar its not about jewish religion that you are trying to make it = zionisim.

davidk14: .

Albastry said: i dont know what about the Jewish who dont belive in "zionisim israel" will they be "antisemitic" ?

David responds: Yes.

Albastry said: …again mr fogowar its not about jewish religion that you are trying to make it = zionisim.

David posts:

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals.

Source: jewishvirtuallibrary.org


Zionism was not a Hindu, Christian or any other religious persuasion movement.


We also must remember that the Arabs of that decade (1940’s) were pro-nazi and it is well documented that they were a part of the Nazi war machine and involved with exterminating Jews in Europe. In 1948 the Arab Muslims from numerous countries tried to finish what the Nazi’s had started, the extermination of the holocaust survivors in Israel. But, surprise! Not this time. This is where the saying “Never Again” came from. And it means “never again”.

The Jews fought back and won that war as they did when these same Islamic countries tried again to exterminate the Jews in 1967 and 1973. But again, surprise! The Jews won and this time the lands of Jordan and Egypt.

.

Yan26: David -I would like to know why did the Zionists demand for a homeland in Palestine? Since they were all Europeon Jews how come they didnt ask for a homeland in Europe(my knowledge on this topic is weak hence the question)?

FogofWaralestine was controlled by the Ottomans before WW1 . The British didnt allow them to live there they always lived there. I believe that Moses/Abrham were not white Europeons. They were Palestinians. It is just that some Palestinian Jews converted to Islam or Christanity. So are you saying they lose the right over the land because they changed their religion?

Calling people anti-semitic just because they dont hold similar to views to you is wrong. I dont believe Albasry has professed hatred towards Jews. By your logic since I am colored and you are white( I assume) if you disagree with me do you become a racist?

FogofWar: "zionism israel wasnt there and there are no israeli"

Since you have access to the internet; I will suggest that you go ahead and research this; as you clearly have not been taught reality in your history class. Canaan was the original land that the Israelites took shortly after Moses left Egypt. Israel was a kingdom over 3000 years ago. When did the British mandate Palestine? Oh; right…after WWI.


"and the palestinians of WWI you talked about were muslims christians and jewishs so again its not about religion as you trying to show."

All of which live with equal rights in Israel. I know people from there. If it's not about religion; why are you pushing the eradication of one group of religious people over another????

"its about demographic changes happened in a period and the way of how its happened, and how hundred of thousends of palestinians throw out of there land."

And of the millions of Jews who were thrown out of there prior? That doesn't matter simply because they are "zionists"? Wow!


"its so funny that i have a "antisemitic ideals" as you said
while i am semitic.
and its strange that any one who talk about the zionisim israel
well be anti-jewish"

Anti-semitism: hatred towards Jews - individually or as a group.

To refer to Israel as zionist jews is the very definition of anti-semitism. How do you feel when people say that Muslims are terrorists? What's the difference?

"again mr fogowar its not about jewish religion that you are trying to make it = zionisim."

Your contradiction here is laughable.


"We also must remember that the Arabs of that decade (1940’s) were pro-nazi and it is well documented that they were a part of the Nazi war machine and involved with exterminating Jews in Europe."

As well as in the British mandate for Palestine (hence the Jewish "terrorists" we read about).

Documentation confirms that Hitler funded Palestinian resistance to the Jews in the Middle East; and Hitler even met with Arab allies stating that he was born into the wrong religion; as Islam was the essence of the Nazi movement.

Yan26 said: "David -I would like to know why did the Zionists demand for a homeland in Palestine? Since they were all Europeon Jews how come they didnt ask for a homeland in Europe(my knowledge on this topic is weak hence the question)?"

Countless Jews were from the Middle East; including many from the British mandate of Palestine. In 1948; it was decided that a homeland for the Jews should be established where the Jewish faith originated; it's "holy land". It also happened to be a place already populated by many Jews. Israel was created where it existed thousands of years ago; and where countless Jews still resided. It was the only option.

"The British didnt allow them to live there they always lived there."

And so too did the Jews; for thousands of years prior. It was controlled by the Ottomans; and taken by the British, as it had been from the Jews by the Ottomans before. The British held it because the Palestinians fought for them; not the Ottomans. To keep them apart; they formed a mandate called Palestine.

"So are you saying they lose the right over the land because they changed their religion?"

The only ones saying anyone loses the right to that land are the people saying Israel has no right to exist. Israel has accepted Palestine's right to exist; and recognizes their independence. Israel is willing to give land to Palestine that was lost by them during the wars in which Palestine and several Arab nations attempted to destroy the Jewish nation; solely because they were Jewish. Most Jews in Israel are not white as well.

"Calling people anti-semitic just because they dont hold similar to views to you is wrong"

Refusing to accept a group of people in a land because of their religion is wrong as well…it is also anti-semitic.

FogofWar: "By your logic since I am colored and you are white( I assume) if you disagree with me do you become a racist?"

Since you have to assume my race; it is clear I have made no mention of it. Clearly I am not being racist in saying that all the people in Israel/Palestine have a right to live together. How is it NOT racist to say that one group of people don't have this right.

Abbasry; does Israel have a right to exist?

Yan26: Fogofwar you ask "Abbasry; does Israel have a right to exist? " This is precisely my point. He has in no way indicated so far that he desires for the mass murder of Jewish people. And therefore he doesnot deserve to be called anti-semitic. Then on what grounds have you called him that? Doesnt both Canadian and US law hold innocent until proven guilty? If he calls for the mass murder of Jews I will join you in condeming him but till then it is unfair to call him anti-semitic just because he opposes your view.
What is wrong in saying that I(not me personally in general) dont like how Israel was created and it was unfair to Palestinians. It doesnt mean that the person is opposed to having talks with Israel does it. In fact the act of coming here to discuss it (instead of blowing himself and innocent civilians) means the person is at least in principal willing to form a consensus to solve the issue. But instead of encouraging people to come out and discuss and form a consensus you shout them down, call them names. You thereby shrink the space for people who are moderate Palestinian/Muslims by not allowing them to participate in a public forum. You then criticise them for not coming to the table for talks. And taunt ME countries for nt having freedom. What freedom of speeh do you give a Muslim if he says he opposes Israel.
If you dont give people a non-violent way of expressing themselves they will resort to violence. So how smart is it to not allow them to express thier views. It is tactically unwise and ethically wrong .
I am not saying this only for Abbasry I am saying this in general as I have seen reaction to Muslims who do not hold popular views turn very extreme.

davidk14: .

Yan,

Talking is always good. The question still remains for you and for Abbasry...

Does Israel have a right to exist?

.

rebel1916: Israhell does NOT have the right to exist because Israel was declared a country in Palestine when that declaration was against the will of the majority of the people living in Palestine at the time. Thus, the right of the people of Palestine to self-determination was denied. It was morally wrong. It is that simple.

davidk14: .

Rebel,

I can't locate the poll you speak about. Does the poll you speak about include the Jews and Christians living there as well?

.

Animal Lover: Rebel, the land which was given to the Jews to form Israel belonged to Jordan and another Islamic country - I think Egypt possibly. No mention of any fictional Land called Palestine.
In addition it had only a few goat herders scattered across it with their animals.
It is only since the Jews have built Israel that the Palestinians want it. I guess they are familiar with the Muslims in India getting the most prosperous part of the Country - Lahore and the Punjab - to start up Pakistan with and what has happened since? They want Kashmir.

FogofWar: "Fogofwar you ask "Abbasry; does Israel have a right to exist? " This is precisely my point. He has in no way indicated so far that he desires for the mass murder of Jewish people."

When have I stated that he did? He has stated that Israel is wrong and that it is not; nor ever was Israel. That alone is an anti-Israeli statement. So, why then does Israel not have a right to exist?

"And therefore he doesnot deserve to be called anti-semitic."

So it's only anti-semitic to want to kill Jews? Hating them isn't enough? So I guess that black guy who got beaten for being black wasn't discriminated against because they didn't kill him???


"Then on what grounds have you called him that?"




Albasry said:

"its not like that , there was no israel
an then zionism and uk make it a state after years of attacking palestinians and bring jews which Europe and European dont want them
to palestian.


its about Zionism and land owners"


Please; albasry or Yan; defend how this is not anti-semitic; and please answer me; why does Israel not have a right to exist? Why should Jews not be allowed in the Middle East?


"If he calls for the mass murder of Jews I will join you in condeming him but till then it is unfair to call him anti-semitic."

So when a minority gets beaten down and left in a pool of blood because he is of a different race; this is not racism simply because there was no murder? Um…….



"What is wrong in saying that I(not me personally in general) dont like how Israel was created and it was unfair to Palestinians."

Absolutely nothing. This is not saying that Israel has no right to exist; and that Jews are not allowed there now isn't it??

"It doesnt mean that the person is opposed to having talks with Israel does it."

Albasry said:

Hence why I asked; Does Israel have a right to exist?

"But instead of encouraging people to come out and discuss and form a consensus you shout them down, call them names."

Where have I shouted? Where have I called names? I told him his anti-semitic views may fly in Iraq; but not here. Nowhere did I call him names or yell. Now you are taking things far out of context.


"What freedom of speeh do you give a Muslim if he says he opposes Israel."

What freedoms would he give if I said I oppose his country?


"If you dont give people a non-violent way of expressing themselves they will resort to violence."

I fail to see how leaving discrimination out is a non-violent way of expressing one's self.

"I am not saying this only for Abbasry I am saying this in general as I have seen reaction to Muslims who do not hold popular views turn very extreme."

As I have stated to him. I am sure he does not like being called a terrorist simply for being from Iraq; as I know for a fact that many Jews don't like being called zionists simply for being from Israel. It's a two way street pal. If you want respect from the world; then show it. His expressed attitude towards Israel; and the people living there is not showing it.

Rebel; prove it. There were thousands of Jews living there already; as were Christians. Funny thing is, Palestine was NEVER a country; so to declare independence was not an illegal act.

FogofWar: ...and Albasry; you say it's about what Palestinians want. Well what about what Jews want? Do they not have equal rights?

Why don't we listen to the people of Palestine and see what they want? I suggest you start with a book written by one; who was involved in the wars between Palestinians and Israel. His name is Mossab Hassan Yousef; the son of Hamas founder Hassan Yousef. His book details what it will take to end this; and what it is really about. Go ahead and read it and see. It will open the eyes of anyone who does.

Yan26: David- My belief from my understanding of the events. The way Israel was created was unfair to the Palestinians. I dont however deny that the presence of a Jewish state has helped bring down anti-semtism by giving the Jews a sense of power I think(Cant be substantiated more of a gut feeling) . But if we were to dissolve Israel now it would lead to a bigger catastrophe . You cant avenge one humanitarian crisis(Al-Nakba) by inflicting another one.
So Isreal does have the right to exist. It always did. But the Palestinians got a raw deal in its creation.

Fog: When I said"But instead of encouraging people to come out and discuss and form a consensus you shout them down, call them names." I didnt mean you in particular. I apologize if it seemed that way. I dont make personal attacks.

To everyone in general:
Do my views make me anti-semitic? The fact that I dont hate jews, dont want them killed, would have no problem being friends or relatives with them doesn't count. Unless of course I toe the line that the West wants me to toe.
Yes it is obvious that Abassary doesnt like the creation of Israel. You could also infer that he is not very fond of Jews living in Israel. But to be anti-semitic a person should hate another person simply because he was a Jew. I believe Abassary has shown that he dislikes Israel(more probably the hawks). Yes he views the creation of Israel to be unfair? Why doesnt he have the right to? Stating that the creation of Israel was unfair is not the same as stating that he wants all Jews dead or that he hates all of them. Wishing that Israel had not been created(hence doesnot exist) does not imply he would indulge in acts to destroy it. He never said anything about Jews outside Israel. His opposition seems mainly to be to Israel and not Jews all over.
Once again this is not about Abassary . This is about the right for someone to oppose Israeli policies(government) without being called anti-semitic.

FogofWar: "So Isreal does have the right to exist. It always did. But the Palestinians got a raw deal in its creation."

Fair enough Yan. Then how would you propose the Palestinians be treated so that it is fair? Surely having land that is theirs; a governing body recognized by the international community; and aid from neighbours?

Israel has given land that is theirs. They recognize the Palestinian Authority as the governing body; and have been helping to see the international community recognize their independence as well. Israel provides more aid to Palestine than any nation on earth; so surely they are receiving aid from their neighbour.

You know what else they are receiving? Water, electricity; heat, roads…all paid for by the Israeli government. Why won't the PA take on this responsibility? Good question; but if the PA became a recognized government of an independent nation; then they would have to.

Yasser Arafat was given the chance for Palestinian independence; and peace between Israel and Palestine. Yasser Arafat chose to deny it. He made it appear that he was sympathetic to a peace agreement; but secretly hired Hamas to stage the 2nd Infatada; which killed countless Palestinians; simply so that he could refuse Israel's offer on account of them killing Palestinians. He never wanted independence and peace; he wan't chaos; and international sympathy.

This has come from the mouth of one of Hamas' highest and most influential fighters.

"To everyone in general:
Do my views make me anti-semitic?"

No. There is nothing wrong with showing sympathy towards Palestinians. A little known fact on here is that Israelis show more sympathy towards Palestinians than most anyone else. It is anti-Semitic to demand sympathy for Palestinians; while denying it to the "zionist Jew". Why should we show one person's side sympathy when we are to deny it from the other because they are different?


"You could also infer that he is not very fond of Jews living in Israel. But to be anti-semitic a person should hate another person simply because he was a Jew."

Does this not fit your own description?


"He never said anything about Jews outside Israel."

Yet he has labeled every person from Israel as a zionist. He has labelled every Israeli as untrue to the land.

Would this not be the same as saying I don't hate black people because I like the ones living in America; but every black person in Africa has aids and wants to destroy us?

A stereotype is discrimination. Discrimination is bad; regardless of whether it is for an entire walk of people; or just the ones in a certain area.


"This is about the right for someone to oppose Israeli policies(government) without being called anti-semitic."

Opposing Israeli policies (government) does not require one to label all Jews in Israel as outsiders and zionists now does it? There are countless Jews in Israel that are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause; and they too disagree with Israeli policies. How is this a zionist??

Yan26: Fogofwar - I think our main difference is how we have interpreted Abassary's words. We seem to agree on everything else. Since Abassary is not explaining them it would be pointless to continue arguing over them. Peace man.

David -
How many of the ME Jews called for creation of Israel before 1948?( I am only trying to understand whether Jews from countries in which they were not discriminated also felt the same as European Jews )

davidk14: .

I believe the word “Zionism” is being thrown around here and it need not be. Again, the description of “Zionism” according to the Jewish Virtual Library:

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals.

Source: jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Notice the words “the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland”. The homeland is the current sovereign country of Israel. You either were or weren’t a Zionist. The word no longer needs to be used. The country now exists.

The Jewish State of Israel exists. The country has approximately 7 million Jews and approximately 1 million Muslims and Christians. It is a vibrant parliamentary democracy. Just like here in the US, there are those Israeli’s who do not agree with all of its laws and policies. But they are Israeli’s, Jews and non-Jews, and they will die to protect their country from aggression just like you and me.

Yan, go to jewishvertuallibrary.com and there is the complete history of the Zionist movement. It is too long to cut and paste here.

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dave3974: unlike most arab countrys though if they diagree with their government they stillhave a vote and will not disapear

FogofWar: Yan, several Jews prior to 1948 called for the establishment of Israel. Israel was their homeland thousands of years ago; and they had been there since. The Jews in Palestine during WWII were called terrorists because of their continued resistance of Nazi backed Palestinians.


Exactly dave3974. Israel does have a reputation; to those willing to look past the propaganda; of working with Islamic citizens. Israel is democratic; and democracy affords everyone a say in their political agenda; regardless of their faith.

Outbackjack: Seriously Fog.Who can be bothered reading all that?

David,Zionism should not be swept under the carpet.It is a racist ideology that is still being preached by the Israeli government in the West Bank today.

davidk14: Outback, so what is your definition of Zionism?

FogofWar: yah David; the Jewish zionist movement to establish a home for Jewish people in the homeland; along with other members of different faiths is racist! Unlike the kill all non Muslim approach Hamas takes.