DavidK (Page 2)

IamEggman
IamEggman: Chrono,
I'm aware of, and agree with you on the pressure politicians would be put under by the jewish lobby in Washington to support Israel in any action they take, but selling that to the people will be much harder now. I cant see the majority of American people agreeing to get tangled up in another war in the middle east. Especially one where the body count will be much higher than Iraq.
Every country agrees that something has to be done, but no one knows how to go about it. The idea of using nuclear weapons is a non starter though.
13 years ago Report
0
davidk14
davidk14: Gentlemen,

When Saddam Hussein launched Scud after Scud at Israel, and missile after missile hit Israel, did Israel retaliate? Nope.

Why is that?

It’s because the United States told Israel that if they did retaliate against Iraq, the Arab countries “sitting on the fence” would jump in and then, we would have a real mess, perhaps WW3.

Israel said ok fine, however if a chemical, biological or nuclear weapon is detonated on Israeli soil, nothing anyone would say or do would be able to stop the Israeli Military from responding. The US agreed.


Fast forward to today…


Israel for years has received attacks from Hezbollah and Hamas, both terrorist groups and direct surrogates and supported by Iran. No secret here.

Chrono said: I agree with you Malo. And let us all not forget the 30.000 American Girls and Boys still in Iraq who will placed at risk if a war breaks out. Sorry to say this, but Washington should spell it out to Iran; 'If you attack Iraq, we will Nuke you Guys'.

David continues: Good thought. How about the United States also spelling it out to Iran, “If you attack Israel, we will nuke you guys”.

Oh…they are already are attacking Israel through Hezbollah and Hamas using the Palestinians as human shields.

Gee…something to think about.

Oh and eggman, I just can’t see the American people stand idly by while Israel, our deep rooted and trusted friend since her creation out of the dust of concentration camps, that Israel is attacked destroyed and the 7+ million Jews exterminated…and on network TV…in millions, tens of millions of American homes…I just don’t see it. The US stood by once before.

(Please note, this is just a scenario and has not taken place)


“And on the News tonight, Israel is once again under attack from Hamas and Hezbollah…NEWS BREAK…A nuclear detonation has just occurred in Tel Aviv…One moment please…It has been confirmed…a nuclear detonation has occurred. Hamas has taken responsibility for the explosion. And now the highlights from last night’s basketball game from Hoops Johnson….Hoops? So was that a game or what???”

If you think that scenario is possible in the US, you are out of your mind. Here’s a likely scenario…

_________________________________
13 years ago Report
0
davidk14
davidk14: (Please note, this is just a scenario and has not taken place)

“And on the News tonight, Israel once again under attack from Hamas and Hezbollah…NEWS BREAK…A nuclear detonation has just occurred in Tel Aviv…One moment please…It has been confirmed…a nuclear detonation has occurred. The population of Tel Aviv of three million Jews have just been vaporized! Hamas and Hezbollah have taken responsibility for the explosion. Half of the population of Israel has just been vaporized! The Israeli military has identified radioactive isotopes from the Tel Aviv explosion originated from the nuclear reactor in Iran. Iran has just called that report Zionist lies. NEWS BREAK…We have just learned the Israeli Military is responding. Wait….NEWS BREAK, there has been a nuclear detonation each in Damascus and in Tehran. We have just learned that there here have also been 6 other detonations mostly in Iran. One at the Republican Guard Barracks, one at the Hezbollah control center outside of Damascus, four at Iranian nuclear reactor sites and one more that has not been determined. Israel has beaten back the attacks by Hamas in the south and Hezbollah in the north but has also taken a beating from the thousands of convention rockets that have been fired into Israel from Lebanon and Gaza, rockets supplied by Iran.

We have just received comments from a number of world leaders condemning the nuclear attack on Israel but also Israel’s nuclear response. Many leaders are saying Israel has once again used excessive force in protecting herself just as she did when she responded to the rocket attacks from Hamas a few years ago.

Many supporters of Hamas and Hezbollah deny it was a nuclear bomb that went off in Tell Aviv and that the Israelis constructed the entire scenario to murder Palestinians and there supporter, Iran. We have correspondents all over the world reporting that there are demonstrations in the streets supporting Hamas and Hezbollah and calling Israeli's murderers of women and children. NEWS BREAK...it has been reported that the highly radioactive nuclear cloud from the Tel Aviv explosion is drifting east caused by the off shore winds from the Mediterranean. Wait…wait…Yes, it is now confirmed that the cloud has drifted over the West Bank.

The Russian response to this has been mixed but states Israel has once again caused this atrocious situation and blames Washington for not forcing a Palestinian homeland. The Obama Administration has just released a statement. The president hopes all sides stand down so that no further loss of life occurs.

(Please note the above is just a scenario and has not taken place and hopefully never will.)

.
13 years ago Report
0
ArmyGirl123
ArmyGirl123: i keep reading what you guys are writing here ,
and i stop myself from writing a comment ,
you guys have no idea whats going on in israel or in the middle east at all ,
David here is writing pure facts ,

israel want peace , i want peace
and let me remind you that the 'poor' palestines voted for hamas and even now they support hamas .
let me tell you something , i was a little girl in the 90's
as you know childhood is an important part in a person's life
and i grew up with buses bombing infront of me , and bodies around
i,myself , was inside of a terror attack.
it was called the intifada, the second one
almost everyday a terrorist got inside israel and bombed himself
can you imagine this kind of reality ? would you give your kids this kind of reality ? no. and you will do whatever it takes to stop those people.
after years of death and terror we had enough ,
and where was the UN when a terrorist bombed himself in a school bus in the start of 2000 ?
before you are fast to call the palestines "poor" and "innocent" do a little background check , those poor people want the death of israel.
and when they would want peace , they will get it , that is for sure.
we had enough , and we will use whatever it takes to stop those people from hurting us , i saw things that i dont want any other kid to see
and i will stand behind those words .
no more and not again .
13 years ago Report
0
ArmyGirl123
ArmyGirl123: and sorry for my lame english ,
hopefully you understand what i wrote .

david , god bless you .
13 years ago Report
0
IamEggman
IamEggman: David,
I was talking about a preemptive or preventative strike against Iran using nuclear weapons. Obviously no nation would stand idly by as Israel is annihilated, at least no western nation. Iran knows it would be destroyed if it used nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. Anyway it doesn't need to. if the war in Iraq has shown anything it is that the best way to fight is small groups using 'terror' tactics.
Israel and the west need to find some way of dealing with Iran that doesn't seem arrogant and bullying to the other countries in the middle east, but scares Iran enough to stop them funding terrorism.
It's not going to be easy, or any time soon.
13 years ago Report
0
chronology
chronology: Egg. I disagree. Iran must be told that Washington means business this time. If Iran sends it's Army to attack American troops, then Washington should make it clear, what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah would be nothing to what would happen to Iran's Army in the field. But Nuclear Weapons only against military forces in the field, not cities, civilians should be kept safe.

David. As I understand current events, both Europe and the U.S.A. are committed to upholding Israel's freedom, even despite the bad publicity of Gaza Bloodbaths etc. Israel's future is not seen as optional.
13 years ago Report
0
davidk14
davidk14: .

Many posts ago, I said something like the following, “What we should have done in Fallujah, Iraq was instead of sending in thousands of US Marines to clear and hold the city, we should have dropped a thermonuclear weapon.” Because of politics, the Marines took huge casualties clearing that city not once, not twice, but three times.

What we should have done is this, we should have surrounded the city. We should have dropped leaflets telling the population that the United States in 48 hours was going to send one plane over the city and destroy the city completely [whether by nuclear or an equivalent conventional munitions]. As the population left, we would also have also caught or killed the rat basterds fleeing a sinking ship. Then afterwards, the US would respond to the Middle East that this was only one plane and also tell the world that the US is serious about its intentions of a free and democratic Iraq and anyone who gets in the way will be treated the same. You think that these backwards bumpkins would have taken us seriously then? I think so.

Please excuse some of my following vocabulary. I do not usually use these words but I am using them for effect. Thank you.)

The lessons of the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the US are not taught in the Middle East nor of American resolve to use these terrible weapons of destruction if needed. However, the lesson that needs to be absolutely clear…you f%x* with America, you fwzw with our friends, you will get f*z$&z in the ass real hard. You want to act like terrorists, you ‘will’ pay.

.
13 years ago Report
0
chronology
chronology: David. If the Iranian Army does try to attack U.S. Troops like you say, just Nuke em. Why should young American Girls and Boys in the Services have to mess around with these people?
13 years ago Report
0
Malobear
Malobear: ArmyGirl123,excuse my ignorance. Television docs have shown people in the streets of gaza that clearly state that they dont support Hamas. My brother who fought in "Desert Storm" told me years ago,that in the middleeast its the biggest bully that dictates everything. So I guess looking at it that way of thinking, Iran would be the biggest in the region,along side with Saudi Arabia. Back to Gaza,would you not agree that its very possible that the people of Gaza are probably being 'Strong-armed" by people such as Hamas to vote and support them?
13 years ago Report
0
ArmyGirl123
ArmyGirl123: Malo , the people of gaza/palestine support hamas
why ? cause hamas attacks israel ,
and believe me that without their support hamas is nothing.
the problem is that in a war both sides become full of hate
and they vote like they feel ,
even in israel after op. cast lead we chose a more right wing governmant but its clearly not a terror group.
they put weapons inside of schools , inside of mosques etc
and then they cry how could we bomb a holy place !
let me tell you something , when you put weapons in a mosque, its not a holy place anymore.
7 years israel did nothing and they shot their rockets on citizens in south israel , 7 years of nothing .
put yourself in the place of israel , what would you do ?
and how can you not hit citizens accidently when they use them all the time ?
no one want to hurt innocent people , womans and kids
but war is a dirty thing and we all pay for it .
and like i said , 90% of the people of gaza hate israel
so its not a problem for them to support the group who attacks israel

again , sorry for my lame english [;
oh and id be happy to answer all your questions
13 years ago Report
0
Moony_xo
Moony_xo: "Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and Naval vessels to bomb densely crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks mosques and slums, to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command and control, no army and calls it a war. It is not a war. It is murder".
13 years ago Report
0
ArmyGirl123
ArmyGirl123: its also a murder when hamas send a terrorist to bomb himself in a school bus , in shops
we TRY to not hit citizens while the main target of them is to murder as much as citizens as they can .

its not a normal war but its a war against terror,
which is more hard for us , cause they have no honor
even in war you should have respect ,
not to use kids as shileds and NOT to use their schools as military base.
it is easy to blame the israeli army,
specially when you see in the media dead kids , people should blame hamas, not israel. israel is not the terrorist group here.
like i said , its a war against terror .
13 years ago Report
0
Moony_xo
Moony_xo: Yes, I agree it is muder when a terrorist bombs himself up. I was just correcting the term you used when you said "war".
But isn't terror also using ammo with white phosphorus and depleted uranium? It depends on your definition really.

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/hebron_human_shield_2.jpg
^ Human shields.
13 years ago Report
0
davidk14
davidk14: .

Moony said: "Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and Naval vessels to bomb densely crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks mosques and slums, to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command and control, no army and calls it a war. It is not a war. It is murder".

David responds: Sounds pretty stupid to me. Attacking a country that can wipe you out with a single blow don’t you think? It also sounds pretty stupid when the people you hate, the Israeli’s leave your home and villages, the entire Gaza, and then you attack them for leaving? Dumb and dumber. And the dumbest thing of all? Having in your Hamas charter that you are devoted to the genocide of 8 million Jews and the destruction of an entire country. Now that’s just crazy!

So for you Moony to call it murder, is just as crazy. You say they are being murdered, perhaps they should not attack Israel because then they are the guilty ones of the murder, not the people who are defending themselves.

Moony, if you lived next door to me and were throwing Molotov cocktails at my house and my family, and at times injuring them, and I pleaded with you, pleaded with the world, begging you not to do it. You even kidnapped one of my family. I even allow humanitarian aid into your house for your family while you are causing this mayhem.

And finally, when enough is enough and I come over and beat the shit out of you, I am the criminal? And, I still allow the aid into your home. Perhaps that’s the craziest thing of all.

.
13 years ago Report
0
Moony_xo
Moony_xo: David says: "Sounds pretty stupid to me. Attacking a country that can wipe you out with a single blow don’t you think? It also sounds pretty stupid when the people you hate, the Israeli’s leave your home and villages, the entire Gaza, and then you attack them for leaving? Dumb and dumber. And the dumbest thing of all? Having in your Hamas charter that you are devoted to the genocide of 8 million Jews and the destruction of an entire country. Now that’s just crazy!"

Moony responds: Those children didn't attack Israel, unless you're holding them responsible for it aswell, i wouldn't be surprised. Also, Gaza isn't exactly Israel's to get into and leave as they please, you make it sound like they did us a favor, a bit like the settlements they have in the West Bank. On your last comment:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israel
Try to keep up here.

So for you david, those 1500 people who died, did not all attack Israel. There are other ways to deal with things than disproportionate wars. Incased you forgot, there was a truce between Hamas and Israel for 6 months. You know who broke it? Israel.

David says: "Moony, if you lived next door to me and were throwing Molotov cocktails at my house and my family, and at times injuring them, and I pleaded with you, pleaded with the world, begging you not to do it. You even kidnapped one of my family. I even allow humanitarian aid into your house for your family while you are causing this mayhem."

Moony responds: Some Palestinians may argue the same thing about the settlers and about the state of Israel itself. Theres two sides to every story.
Again, I could say the same thing about Israel. Does it make a difference? No. Not to you.
13 years ago Report
0
ArmyGirl123
ArmyGirl123: like i said , media and lies are your (people) best weapon.

remember, one mistake of a soldier ( 20 years old) under messiv preasure , doesnt mean its how the israeli army work.
they are humans also , young boys and girls .
and we go out there cause we protect the people we love .
when hamas or any other group bomb some place , they dont do it to protect someone , they do it cause they love to see the pain in their enemys eyes. no honor and no shame .
no comments anymore , you can take it however you want.
13 years ago Report
0
chronology
chronology: David ............... in the last ten years, please tell us how many Palestinian women and children have been killed by Israel. Also, give the number of Israeli women and children killed in the same period.
13 years ago Report
0
chronology
chronology: Trying to get accurate figures for Palestinian deaths is difficult due to often confused and chaotic conditions during Israeli attacks, but the following is from Palestinian Hospitals.

In the last ten years 1452 Palestinian children have been killed in the present violence. It is disputed if these children were targeted, or tragically in too close proximity to violence from Israelis. In the same period Israel reports 124 Israeli children were killed, again it is unclear how many of these children were intended targets or too close to Israeli targets. The total number of civilians killed in the last ten years is 731 Israelis. 3500 - 4500 Palestinians have died in the same period. Israel often disputes the responsibility of Palestinian deaths saying such things as roadside disputes and checkpoint point disputes must be taken into account.

Armygirl, Wireclubs I.D.F. contributor, is far more at risk from suicide than Palestinian Terrorism. In 2005 6 I.D.F. service persons were killed by Terrorism, while 30 actually committed suicide in the same year and 26 died in accidents. Am sure Armygirl knows we all wish her well here, and David and his family love and respect her.
13 years ago Report
0
davidk14
davidk14: .

Moony responds: Those children didn't attack Israel, unless you're holding them responsible for it aswell, i wouldn't be surprised. Also, Gaza isn't exactly Israel's to get into and leave as they please, you make it sound like they did us a favor, a bit like the settlements they have in the West Bank.

David responds: You are absolutely correct; the Israeli children that were murdered during both infatada’s didn’t kill anyone.

_________________________________



Gaza in 1995 was evacuated by Israel to move the peace process along as designed in the Oslo Accords signed by Arafat (remember him?) just like Israel did when she returned the Sinai to Egypt and Israel and Egypt did sign a peace treaty. Don’t forget that Egypt did not want the Palestinian problem which was in the Gaza Strip and told the Israeli’s, “They’re your problem now. We’ll take the Sinai back but you keep the Gaza.”

Now why was that? For that matter, why is Egypt currently doing the exact same thing as Israel in blockading Gaza? It’s because Egypt does not want Hamas terrorists or their ideas running around in their country just like Israel doesn’t. Egypt has a bigger problem with the Muslim Brotherhood who is a supporter of Hamas.

For that matter, when Israel was in negotiations with Jordan, the Jordanians did the same thing as the Egyptians. The West Bank Territories and East Jerusalem was Jordanian until they attacked Israel with Egypt and Syria in 1967. During the negotiations as with Egypt, the Jordanians told Israel, we don’t want our land back including Jerusalem. It’s yours and so is the Palestinian problem. We wash our hands of them.

So fast forward, Israel removes 21 settlements from Gaza in 1995. And instead of moving forward with peace, Hamas murders dozens perhaps hundreds of Palestinians, primarily their “fellow countrymen in the Palestinian Authority” and why was that? Because Hamas said that the PA was too soft on the Israelis trying to talk peace with Israel and that they, the PA, were turning their backs on the one and only goal….Kill every Jew and destroy Israel….nothing more and nothing less will do. It’s in the Hamas Charter…look it up.

Moony said: So for you david, those 1500 people who died, did not all attack Israel. There are other ways to deal with things than disproportionate wars. Incased you forgot, there was a truce between Hamas and Israel for 6 months. You know who broke it? Israel.
13 years ago Report
0
davidk14
davidk14: David responds: Deal with rocket attacks? I think you might just have that a little jumbled up. For YEARS Hamas was and still is currently firing rockets into Israel. That is called…attacking. Israel has responded with defensive actions targeting missile crews who were launching rockets. Of course you won’t accept the fact that these missile crews use homes, hospitals, schools and anything else in the public domain to try and draw in Israeli responses HOPING that innocent Palestinians get injured and killed. It makes the news and people like you say, “SEE THE ISRAELI’S ARE MURDERING INOCENT CIVILIANS”. If anything the IDF tries very hard NOT to hit civilian targets.

Moony responds: Some Palestinians may argue the same thing about the settlers and about the state of Israel itself. Theres two sides to every story.
Again, I could say the same thing about Israel. Does it make a difference? No. Not to you.

David responds: What settlers? The settlers left Gaza in 1995!!!!

Regarding the current settlements in the West Bank, when Israel did halt the building, did the PA sit down and start negotiations? Did they even say good stuff, now let’s try and sit down and talk? Israel told the PA that if they didn’t come to the table they would let the settlement building hold expire. Did the PA say hold on, here we come, let’s sit down? No. They never wanted to sit down.

They know, just like Egypt and Jordan, Israel will trade land for peace. They know also, Israel has removed settlements to move the peace process forward. Israel does have a track record of doing this and they know it. So don’t give me this c~$~ and bull story that the PA or Hamas want peace….not yet anyway.

Chrono said: David ............... in the last ten years, please tell us how many Palestinian women and children have been killed by Israel. Also, give the number of Israeli women and children killed in the same period.

David responds: Israel does have fewer casualties. Israeli’s don’t use their civilians has human shields to draw media attention and to fill the airwaves with hate.

Chrono said: Armygirl, Wireclubs I.D.F. contributor, is far more at risk from suicide than Palestinian Terrorism. In 2005 6 I.D.F. service persons were killed by Terrorism, while 30 actually committed suicide in the same year and 26 died in accidents.

Chrono: Every military has non-combat casualties so using that as part of the discussion is useless. That’s like me trying to sell that the 4500 or so American casualties in Iraq over an eight year period are insignificant compared to the first twenty four hours of the D-Day invasion where close to 15,000 soldiers died during the American landing on Omaha Beach and Red Beach. So your comparison is "moot" and not well thought out at all.

.
13 years ago Report
0
chronology
chronology: David. Are you seriously saying that Palestinians deliberately use their own wives and children as human shields just to generate bad publicity for Israel?. You know I hope you never ever set foot in Palestinian Territory, because I hate to think how a Palestinian father who buried his daughter would react to seeing you. Also the fact that Armygirl is six times more likely to be harmed as a result of depression induced suicide is a noteworthy point. Any threat to her well being is a serious threat. Palestinians are not the biggest threat to her safety, depression is. The Media in the West go hysterical any time Palestinians fire missiles at Israel, funny how they not mentioned that Armygirl lost on average 30 comrades a year from suicide.
13 years ago Report
0
davidk14
davidk14: .

Chrono said: David. Are you seriously saying that Palestinians deliberately use their own wives and children as human shields just to generate bad publicity for Israel?

David responds: Hamas fighters have and do use civilians as shields. Yes. What are you thinking? These people have been known to send their children with bombs on their bodies…they are known as suicide bombers. There are dozens of videos on youtube where the Palestinian mother is just so stinking proud of their son or daughter for sacrificing their lives. You need to get out more.

Chrono said: You know I hope you never ever set foot in Palestinian Territory, because I hate to think how a Palestinian father who buried his daughter would react to seeing you.

David responds: Well, first of all, being a Jew, he would probably want to kill me because the Hamas Charter says as a good Muslim, he had better! On a personal note, I would mourn with him. The loss of an innocent life anywhere is sad.

Chrono said: Also the fact that Armygirl is six times more likely to be harmed as a result of depression induced suicide is a noteworthy point. Any threat to her well being is a serious threat. Palestinians are not the biggest threat to her safety, depression is. The Media in the West go hysterical any time Palestinians fire missiles at Israel, funny how they not mentioned that Armygirl lost on average 30 comrades a year from suicide.

David responds:

The US Army’s 350-page report issued Thursday, titled “Health Promotion, Risk Reduction and Suicide Prevention,” placed the suicides in a broader context of dangerous behavior among soldiers, including rampant drug use, drunk driving and violent crime.

The report was commissioned after the rate of suicides among active duty Army personnel rose higher than that of the general population in 2008. While the civilian rate was 19.2 per 100,000 people that year, it was 20.2 per 100,000 for Army personnel. Traditionally, the suicide rate in the Army has been considerably lower than that in the general population, and the current rate is more than triple that which existed in the Army prior to 2001.

In the last fiscal year, the Army recorded 239 suicides among both active duty soldiers and reservists. Out of these, 160 were active duty soldiers. Meanwhile, another 146 active duty deaths were attributed to what the report calls “high risk behavior”. More than half of these deaths—74—were caused by drug overdoses. The report notes that the number of accidental deaths among soldiers has also tripled since 2001.
During the same period, according to the report, there were 1,713 suicide attempts by Army soldiers.

The report does not deal with the suicide rate among veterans, which is considerably worse than those still in the Army. A 2007 study estimated the suicide rate among male veterans aged 20 to 24 at four times the national average—more than 40 per 100,000 per year.

The report is remarkably frank about the horrendous impact of the Army’s involvement for nearly nine years in the US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Together, suicides and so-called “high risk behavior” killed more soldiers during the year than combat in Afghanistan and Iraq.

________________________________


So, you can see, the Israeli military’s suicide rate is much, much lower than the US’s. One reason…every Israeli soldier knows that what they are doing is a daily life and death struggle against those who will use genocide and may attack them at any moment.

And yes…Hamas and Hezbollah and any others that militarily support these terrorist Palestinians are the biggest threat to every Israeli’s existence.

Israeli’s are truly are in the fight of their lives…to stay alive. Depression is the least of their problems.

.
13 years ago Report
0
davidk14
davidk14: I was working on the next section when Chrono sent his last post. So excuse all of my posts tonight, I've been rather busy.

________________________________


Chrono,

I just completed research regarding your post from page two regarding the White Phosphorus used by Israel in the Gaza Strip:

WP is a highly efficient smoke producing agent, burning quickly and causing an instant bank of smoke. As a result, smoke producing WP munitions are very common, particularly as smoke grenades for infantry, loaded in defensive grenade dischargers on tanks and other armored vehicles, or as part of the ammunition allotment for artillery or mortars.

These create smokescreens to mask movement from the enemy, or to mask his fire. It is also used in smoke, tracer, and illumination munitions.

America, Britain and NATO used this type of munitions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In Iraq, the Saddam Hussein regime used white phosphorus, as well as chemical weapons that are scheduled in the Chemical Weapons Convention, in the Halabja poison gas attack during the Iran–Iraq War in 1988, according to the ANSA news agency.

WP use is legal for purposes such as illumination and obscuring smoke, and the Chemical Weapons Convention does not list WP in its schedules of chemical weapons.

On November 30, 2005, General Peter Pace defended use of WP, declaring that WP munitions were a "legitimate tool of the military", used to illuminate targets and create smokescreens, and that there were better weapons for killing people. It is well within the law of war to use those weapons as they're being used, for marking and for screening... A bullet goes through skin even faster than white phosphorus does".

"Neil Gibson, technical adviser to Jane's Missiles and Rockets, insisted that the M825A1 WP round was used by Israel. “The M825A1 is an improved model. The smoke screen produced is extremely effective,” he said...The shell is not defined as an incendiary weapon by the Third Protocol to the Convention on Conventional Weapons because its use is to produce smoke to protect troops.

The IDF said that it "wishes to reiterate that it uses weapons in compliance with international law, while strictly observing that they be used in accordance with the type of combat and its characteristics."

Human Rights Watch had no evidence that Israel was using incendiaries as weapons in Gaza..”

Head of the UN Fact Finding Mission Justice Richard Goldstone presented a report of the Mission to the Human Rights Council in Geneva on 29 September 2009, urging the Council and the international community as a whole to put an end to impunity for violations of international law in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory. The Goldstone report accepted that white phosphorus is not illegal under international law.
13 years ago Report
0
davidk14
davidk14: Weight-for-weight, phosphorus is the most effective smoke-screening agent known, for two reasons: first, it absorbs most of the screening mass from the surrounding atmosphere and secondly, the smoke particles are an aerosol, a mist of liquid droplets which are close to the ideal range of sizes for Mie scattering of visible light. This effect has been likened to three dimensional textured privacy glass—the smoke cloud does not simply obstruct an image, but thoroughly scrambles both visual and infrared radiation, interfering with infra-red optics and weapon-tracking systems...

...serving as a protection for military forces from guided weapons such as anti-tank missiles.

The Israeli inquest into the Gaza Operation is a 158 page document which looked into the situations like the use of WP. On page 129 and 130, the following paragraphs:

343. Hamas‘ anti-tank units, equipped with advanced anti-tank missiles, were operating in this area. These units were located mainly near the northern side of the UNRWA compound, so that the compound was placed between Hamas‘ anti-tank units and IDF forces. The threat to Israeli forces was credible and imminent.

344. The IDF‘s primary rationale for deploying smoke screening munitions containing white phosphorous was to produce a smokescreen to protect Israeli forces from the Hamas anti-tank crews operating adjacent to the UNRWA headquarters. Such a smokescreen has proven an effective response to the anti-tank threat, since it effectively blocks the enemy‘s field of view and prevents it from using visual observation tools (including infra-red). As discussed in Section V.D(3)(a)(i) below, the IDF‘s use of the standard smoke projectile — which is commonly found in the arsenal of other armed forces of States worldwide — is lawful for this purpose.

345. The smokescreen created during the fighting in Tel al-Hawa was effective in achieving its military objectives. It prevented most of Hamas‘ attempts to launch anti-tank missiles, although one missile did hit an IDF tank. Hamas‘ anti-tank units, which are mobile, had to change their positions in order to be able to attack IDF forces. In the absence of the smoke-screen, the fight would have continued in this area, and the IDF would have had to use reactive fire to engage anti-tank units, with the likelihood of greater civilian harm.

346. The target zones of the smoke projectiles were determined in accordance with operational considerations, including the progress of IDF forces and the changing deployment of Hamas anti-tank units. The IDF sought to maintain a safety distance of several hundred metres from sensitive sites, including the UNRWA compound. Despite the maintenance of a safety distance, some felt wedges and other components of the projectiles apparently landed in the compound after the release of the felt wedges in the air. The IDF neither intended nor anticipated this outcome. Following a U.N. report on a fire in the compound, and in response to a request by the U.N., the IDF ceased the use of smoke projectiles in the area. In addition, the arrival of fire trucks and evacuation of tankers from the UNRWA compound was coordinated with the IDF.

347. In conclusion, the incident took place during intense fighting, which involved Hamas‘ deployment of anti-tank units equipped with advanced anti-tank missiles north of the UNRWA compound. Hamas thus placed the compound between themselves and the IDF forces. The IDF implemented an effective smokescreen as a protective measure in response to this threat.

The operational advantage of using the smokescreen was significant. The IDF anticipated that the risk to civilians and civilian objects was limited in relation to this operational advantage. Unfortunately, however, three individuals were injured and U.N. facilities were damaged.
13 years ago Report
0