DavidK (Page 3)

davidk14: Human Rights Watch had no evidence that Israel was using incendiaries as weapons in Gaza..”

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Oh, and as a note, as I was doing research, I noticed something interesting. Hamas had used state of the art anti-tank weapons initially destroying and damaging numerous Israeli front line tanks. Where did they get them from? You guessed it…Iran.


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Outbackjack: I find it hilarious that armygirl seems to think that David is writing pure facts immediately after posting a lunatic raving mad "scenario" about Israel getting attacked by nuclear weapons.

David,dont accuse flashie of being paranoid when you post things like that.

Meanwhile in the latest breaking news............

Moony_xo: David says: "You are absolutely correct; the Israeli children that were murdered during both infatada’s didn’t kill anyone."

Moony responds: Neither did the Palestinian children, all the way back to 1948 and before that. Including Deir Yassin massacre and what not. Im not justifying suicide bombers and the death of Israeli kids, but, are Israeli kids more important than Palestinian ones? We are all humans.
Also, the 300+ CHILDREN in Israeli jails, are they terrorists? why don't you voice out for them instead of being so lopsided. You can support Israel all you want, but at least speak out in times of injustice and war crimes.

David says: "Gaza in 1995 was evacuated by Israel to move the peace process along as designed in the Oslo Accords signed by Arafat (remember him?) just like Israel did when she returned the Sinai to Egypt and Israel and Egypt did sign a peace treaty. Don’t forget that Egypt did not want the Palestinian problem which was in the Gaza Strip and told the Israeli’s, “They’re your problem now. We’ll take the Sinai back but you keep the Gaza.”

Moony responds: Israel may have left control of Gaza in 1995, but it certainly did not take it's settlements with it until 2005, genius. I don't want to disrespect you because you're older than I am but at least get your facts straight. Also, I think it's safe to say, as with the Palestinians, the Egyptian government does not represent the voice of the Egyptian people and we both well know that if the Egyptian government falls there will be a lot of changes in the policies with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

If you had bothered to read the link I gave you, you would see that Hamas gave up this "charter" in 2006. Look again.

David says: "Deal with rocket attacks...."
Moony responds: Yes, deal with rocket attacks the right way, they were going to get rid of those attacks by a truce, which Hamas stuck to whether you like them or not. It was Israel who broke it. I still await your excuse on that.


David says: "What settlers? The settlers left Gaza in 1995!!!!"
Moony responds: No. They left in 2005 and they're still in the West Bank. Horrible, i might add, since I live there.
Israel isn't looking for peace, it's looking for more land to steal as it's doing today, or do you need a map to prove it? Israel wants a "Jewish state" recognized but it doesn't say on what borders and when we ask what borders, they don't give us a map. Israel wants Jerusalem, forgetting that there is religious significance to more than one religion. Basically, Israel wants to have it's cake and eat it.

davidk14: Sorry again for the long post...

davidk14: Moony Said: Also, the 300+ CHILDREN in Israeli jails, are they terrorists? why don't you voice out for them instead of being so lopsided. You can support Israel all you want, but at least speak out in times of injustice and war crimes.

David responds: Moony, thank you for bringing this up. Considering there are over 1.5 million Palestinian children, if there are only 300 in Israeli lock up, that’s not because they are “angels”. Perhaps they actually committed some crime and probably deserve to be there? Every country on the planet has children in jail, not because they are good kids.

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Moony responds: Israel may have left control of Gaza in 1995, but it certainly did not take it's settlements with it until 2005, genius. I don't want to disrespect you because you're older than I am but at least get your facts straight.

David responds: You are absolutely correct. I was wrong. Oslo Accords took place in the late 1990’s and the second infatada was after that. Israel complete evacuated the Gaza within three weeks in the year 2005. I know this, please excuse the 1995 typo.

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Moony said: Also, I think it's safe to say, as with the Palestinians, the Egyptian government does not represent the voice of the Egyptian people and we both well know that if the Egyptian government falls there will be a lot of changes in the policies with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

David responds: What did you mean, “Also, I think it's safe to say, as with the Palestinians, the Egyptian government does not represent the voice of the Egyptian people…”. Were you suggesting that the PA nor Hamas who were democratically elected by the Palestinian people do not feel they represent them?

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David responds: No it’s you Moony that needs to read.

Since 2001 Hamas fired more than 10,000 rockets and mortars into southern Israel from Gaza. In 2006, Hamas won 76 out of the 132 seats in the Palestinian Parliament. In the same year, Hamas militants kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Shalit is still held today by Hamas today. A six month long cease fire between Hamas and Israel ended in December 2008. During the cease-fire Hamas continued to send missiles and rockets into Israeli towns near Gaza and used the time to stockpile and develop greater weapon technology.

In December of 2008, Hamas refused to renew the cease fire. Exercising its responsibility to protect its citizens, Israel began Operation Cast Lead on December 27, 2008. The goal of this operation was to destroy the tunnels built to smuggle rockets into Gaza and to take out the
rocket launchers that are used against Israeli civilians.

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davidk14: Moony said: If you had bothered to read the link I gave you, you would see that Hamas gave up this "charter" in 2006. Look again.

David responds: As of July 20th, 2010, the following are still the principles of the Hamas and are stated in their Charter:

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. “

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas “aspires to the realization of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take.”


David continues: Moony, you seem intelligent, you have a computer and internet access in the West Bank, you mean to tell me that you truly believe that Hamas “gave up this "charter" in 2006”?

In Gaza on Friday January 2, 2009 Hamas leader Fathi Hammad said, “We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity”.

Please, don’t insult the intelligence of the truth.

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davidk14: Moony said: Israel isn't looking for peace, it's looking for more land to steal as it's doing today, or do you need a map to prove it? Israel wants a "Jewish state" recognized but it doesn't say on what borders and when we ask what borders, they don't give us a map. Israel wants Jerusalem, forgetting that there is religious significance to more than one religion. Basically, Israel wants to have it's cake and eat it.

David responds:

Moony…
Israel has a track record of “looking for peace”. Israel made peace with Jordan. Israel made peace with Egypt. Israel, following the Oslo Accords, removed all its settlements from Gaza.

If Israel was looking for land, she would have not returned the Sinai. If she was looking for land, she wouldn’t have evacuated 21 settlements from Gaza.

What has the PA or Hamas done to move peace forward? Anything?

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Moony,

I realize I’m just a Monday morning quarterback sitting in front of a computer screen typing away and defending what I believe is right, in a house in a country on the other side of the planet. I have never been to the Middle East, I haven’t even been more than 4000 miles away from where I was born.

All anyone like myself, just like anyone of the billions of human beings can do is to do research and find materials that either support and or not support points of view.

What am I to think when I find information like, “ In Gaza on Friday January 2, 2009 Hamas leader Fathi Hammad said, “We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity”. This quote cancels out your comment “If you had bothered to read the link I gave you, you would see that Hamas gave up this "charter" in 2006. Look again.”

And I did go to the web-site you posted and if you had read the entire article, you would have read this:

Gazi Hamad, a Hamas candidate in the Gaza Strip, yesterday said the manifesto reflected the group's position of accepting an interim state based on 1967 borders but leaving a final decision on whether to recognize Israel to future generations.

"Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognize the right of Israel to exist," he said.


And this was just before the elections in 2006. We all know what happened in Gaza once the Israelis evacuated. Hamas murdered scores of PA representatives and took over the Gaza. In the West Bank, the PA hunted down and rounded up Hamas sympathizers. There was and still is a civil war which still exists today in the Palestinian community....those who want to have some sort of peace, and those that will not stop the violence because, “We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity”.

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ArmyGirl123: Well said david , well said.

Moony_xo: LOL. Are you listening to yourself? Do you want reports that most of those kids have done nothing or have thrown stones? Jail for throwing stones? Why don't they jail settlers who do worse than throw stones? Ill tell you, because it's an apartheid system. Israels system has a law against jail for people younger than 18, but they don't follow it because it doesn't apply to Arabs. Its obvious you're incapable of accepting that Israel has done bad things.

Excused.

Yes I am suggesting that the PA does not represent the people. Im talking about me, my family, my friends. they don't represent us and Im speaking about the West Bank, not Gaza. Same goes for the Egyptian people, need more proof? Speak to an Egyptian. Most of them hate their government anyway.

Gilad Shalit. 1 prisoner. Israel holds 8000+ Palestinians. Here you go again, considering a people "better" than another.

"A six month..."

Actually, the cease fire was supposed to end in December 2008, it ended in November 2008 when Israel killed 6 militants. Hamas did not fire during those 6 months. Do you need a news source to prove that Israel broke it or can you google yourself?


Imam Hassan Al-Banna is part of the Muslim brotherhood. Not Hamas. Try again later.
Could you link me to a proper news source with that anyway?

"David continues: Moony, you seem intelligent, you have a computer and internet access in the West Bank, you mean to tell me that you truly believe that Hamas “gave up this "charter" in 2006”?"

Yes, I have internet access. Where do you think we live? Thanks for the compliment. Let me make it clear I dont support Hamas, but after a while, people tire of occupation and "wars"nd just want peace. So yes, If Hamas can hold a truce with its worst enemy for 6 months, I can accept that if they prove it. Isn't Hamas now encouraging smaller "factions" to stop fire rockets into Israel or did you miss that?

David... Have you seen the map of "Palestine" lately? I only speak what I see. What would Israel want from Jordan? They dream of a greater Israel and judging from the increasing settlements everyday (which are being built at a very rapid rate lately I might add) they're getting it. How is that fair?

"What am I to think when I find information like, “ In Gaza on Friday January 2, 2009 Hamas leader Fathi Hammad said, “We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity”."

And what am i to think when i've seen past Israeli leaders "DEMOCRATICALLY" elected say this:

"
“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
Source: Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998."

“There is no more Palestine. Finished.”
Moshe Dayan

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"“We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it"

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." -- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978."

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” Source: Address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969"

flashie: whole thread is long *look that up in english slang*

so im skipping past the first page and the bog standard salesperson speil targeting emotion.

Army Girl, could you answer one question for me please?

whats your opinion on israeli settlements being in breach of international law? as described here >en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

ArmyGirl123: i said many times , i do not agree with the settlers .
but i can understand my governmant for not wanting to freez the places.

Malobear: Interesting short video called "The root causes of the Gaza conflict in less than 6 minutes"

Here is a JTF video done in 2008

chronology: Interesting Videos Malo. One really wonders about the violence in 2007 in Gaza. Hamas seem to have represented the Palestinian aspirations for a more competent and less corrupt Government than Fatah were accused of being. Israel and the U.S.A and E.U. declared sanctions when Hamas won the struggle for power in Gaza in 2006 and Israel enforced a Boarder Blockade from 2007. What Gaza seems to need more than anything is some Big Size Desalination plants to supply water, plus a better family planning programme, the population is exploding.

IamEggman: Chrono,
The point i was making about Iran is that the doesn't need to attack anyone, at least not militarily. They can be more effective by using the techniques they are now, buy supplying third parties to do the dirty work. The Iranian government aren't stupid, they know that if they openly attacked anyone they would be playing into Israel and America's hands.
They are quite happy to stay in the background, that is why dealing with them is so problematic.

Malobear: We have had bad presidents in the past and to many Jimmy Carter was good,but to me,he was the worst. Back when the Iranian hostage happened it was the worst thing Mr Carter could have done was his non-actions and thinking he could rescue them. Isnt it funny,that after the Carter/Reagan elections the Iranians released the hostages? The Mullahs knew that Reagan would attack them at a blink of a eye. Anyone that stared down the Russian bear sure wasnt about to think twice with Iran and they knew it. Every life on earth is priceless and I am sure the loved ones of those hostages were very greatful to have their loved ones home. But the price the world had to pay is a nuclear Iran threating to wipe another nation off the face of the planet . To me,a problen that should have been dealt with in 1979.
Even in the early times of Native Americans,one tribe take another tribes people? It meant war.

IamEggman: Iran isnt stupid enough to openly declare war on anyone at the moment. Like i said, they are quite happy to stay in the background pulling strings. Anyway, young people and lawyers are now openly challenging the regime, it is slowly changing there. More and more young people there want to engage with the world, they dont see the west as a threat. Any kind of attack on Iran would turn them against the west.
Pakistan and North Korea pose a much greater threat as far as nuclear weapons go. Pakistan is unstable and has been playing both sides on the 'war on terror'. And North Korea is in the hands of a nutcase.

chronology: Malo. Your criticism of President Carter is unreasonable. First, the Iranians had got what they wanted when they seized the U.S. Embassy Staff, i.e. most of the money the Shah had run off with. This was the whole point of Hostage taking in the first place. Second your judgment of Mr Reagan is laughable, 'he stared down the Russian Bear'? are you joking? Try telling that to American Right Wingers who saw one of their heroes shot down on Flight 007. Supporters of Larry McDonald are still convinced Larry was assassinated, even worse, they think he was taken from the downed aircraft and held in a KGB Prison Camp. President Reagan never even bothered to comment on the shooting of the Korean Jetliner until his White House Staff insisted his none comment on the massacre was becoming a public relations disaster. Mr Reagan only commented about how, if a Soviet Plane with civilians on strayed into American airspace, America would help the plane find it's way home, not shoot it down.

Malobear: Chrono says: "First, the Iranians had got what they wanted when they seized the U.S. Embassy Staff, i.e. most of the money the Shah had run off with. This was the whole point of Hostage taking in the first place."
Malo says; Then why did it take well over a year to release them Chrono? I think there is alot more then your saying.

Chrono says:"your judgment of Mr Reagan is laughable, 'he stared down the Russian Bear'? are you joking? "
Malo says: No Chrono, I am not joking and neither was Reagan when he told Russia to tear down this wall.
Once again Chrono, when the Carter/Reagan elections were over so was all the drama with Iran about the hostage standoff. Iran jerked Jimmys chain long enough and Ronnie wasnt going to put up with it,Iran knew this Chrono.besides at that time, the last thing Iran wanted was a full blown war with the US.

davidk14: .

Chrono,

Your last post is so ridiculous that I’m just amazed. It ranks as one of your worst. Did you smoke a joint with Stewart75 before you wrote it?

Those American hostages were held for 444 days in horrible conditions. When Carter finally decided to launch a rescue attempt, it was ill planned, ill conceived and ill executed. The Iranians beat Carter up right up to the last day of his presidency. I don’t think the Iranians were thinking about Reagan; they just wanted to torture the hostages, Carter, his administration and the American people as long as possible. And they did a marvelous job of it…for 444 days. Thank you President Carter. Nice job.

Regarding the USSR, WTF are you talking about? Reagan broke their back. Do you think some genie out a bottle mysteriously appeared and drove the USSR to collapse?

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chronology: Malo. It took as long as it did because the Iranians dragged out the negotiations. The Iranians at the time were livid with anger at the U.S. for supporting so long the brutal Shahs Government, one of the most brutal that region has ever seen, (and there is tough competition for that title, but the Shah with his SAVACK won hands down).

David, what are you raving at now? What do you want Mr Carter to have done? Invade Iran? at a time when Iranians are united as a Nation, full of brimming hatred for America, ready to die to the last man? Are you nuts? you may as well send the Marines to their death en mass.

Malobear: Chrono, I want to thank you for making me research some things.
Savak was originally started by the Shah from what I researched trained by the CIA and Israeli Mossad. Without making this all drawn out and boring to some. I can agree with you that Savak was a very bad bunch of people. Abrahamian estimates that SAVAK (and other police and military) killed 368 guerillas between 1971–1977 and executed something less than 100 political prisoners between 1971 and 1979 - the most violent era of the SAVAK's existence and in 1976, Jimmy Carter was elected President of the United States "raised the issue of human rights in Iran as well as in the Soviet Union. Overnight prison conditions changed. Inmates dubbed this the dawn of `jimmykrasy.`
So what has happened to Savak as we knew it Chrono?
SAVAK was closed down shortly before the overthrow of the monarchy and the coming to power of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in the February 1979 Iranian Revolution. Following the departure of the Shah in January 1979, SAVAK's 3,000+ central staff and its agents were targeted for reprisals; almost all of them that were in Iran at the time of the Iranian Revolution were hunted down and executed, only a few who were on missions outside of Iran managed to survive.
SAVAK was replaced by the "much larger SAVAMA, Sazman-e Ettela'at va Amniat-e Melli-e Iran, also known as the Ministry of Intelligence and National Security of Iran. According to author Charles Kurzman, SAVAK was never dismantled but rather changed its name and leadership and continued on with the same codes of operation, and a relatively unchanged "staff."
Britannica also state the new organization retains many of low- and mid-level intelligence personnel from the SAVAK.
Hossein Fardoust, a former classmate of the Shah, was a deputy director of SAVAK until he was appointed head of the Imperial Inspectorate, also known as the Special Intelligence Bureau, to watch over high-level government officials, including SAVAK directors. Fardust later is rumoured to have become director of SAVAMA, the post-revolution incarnation of the original SAVAK organization.
So Chrono Savak still lives, just a different name and new boss

Chrono says: "Malo. It took as long as it did because the Iranians dragged out the negotiations."
Malo says: You just agreed with David
Also Chrono, the reason for the hostage ordeal really wasnt about money.
The Iranian government demanded the Shah return to Iran. Jimmy Carter reluctantly allowed the Shah into the United States to undergo surgical treatment at the New York–Weill Cornell Medical Hospital.The Shah was taken later by U.S. Air Force jet to Kelly Air Force Base in Texas and from there to Wilford Hall Medical Center at Lackland Air Force Base .It was anticipated that his stay in the U.S. would be short; however, surgical complications ensued which required six weeks of confinement in the hospital before he recovered. His prolonged stay in the U.S. was extremely unpopular with the revolutionary movement in Iran.There are claims that this resulted in the storming of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran, and the kidnapping of American diplomats, military personnel and intelligence officers, which soon became known as the Iran hostage crisis.

davidk14: .

Nice post Malo!

And Chrono, yes, Carter should have pushed Iran right up to the wall! We should have sent every war ship we had into the Persian Gulf. Every American is important. You don't let the bully on the playground decide he's going to kidnap your people and get away with it. It sends a real bad signal. I do give Carter ‘a tip of the hat’ for making the decision to liberate our fellow citizens, however, you don’t fail. He did. It made the US look even more impotent. We're still feeling the effects now.

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flashie: hang on, didnt the west have a hand in overthrowing the shah and putting ayahtollah in? why do we put tyrants in power and then claim seletive amnesia booting them out forcefully at the cost of innocents?

why dont we just let them be and sell some food processors or cars or sumin to make money instead of all the war?

flashie: my mason friend thinks we should pull outta iraq/afghanistan and make uk like a fortress. sounds cool to me.

you gotta have right on your side protecting your home, rather than being aggressive dicks around the planet, and we are agressive dicks

chronology: Malo. Interesting Post. However anyone who makes even a casual Web Search of facts about Savak would I am sure come to a different conclusion and list of facts and figures you give. Very different indeed.

Yes Malo you are correct. The arrival of the Sharh in the United States was the trigger for the Embassy storming, however 'Cash' was what the kiddnapping was all about. The eventual transfer of Cash to Iran by Bankers organised by the United States was the biggest organised transfare of wealth by Bankers in world history at that time, they got their money back.

David. An invasion of Iran at that time by the U.S. while practically every man woman and child in the country was being energised by anti American hysteria would have led to horrific casuallities of Iranian civilians. The U.S. chose to stand it's ground and suck up the abuse and insults being hurled at it. To most civilised people that is to America's credit, not humiliation. Yes U.S. Tanks could have rolled into the country machine gunning down men, women and children, but that is not the American way.