DavidK (Page 4)

Malobear: Chrono,Where do you think my information came from? I gave you the facts. A matter of fact most was copied to my last post. You could, I guess find other things written thru other peoples way of seeing it. But the fact is SAVAK is still in operation today. Just a different name but same tactics and torture of its own people and whoever else crosses Iran.So the people of Iran have really gained nothing by the Islamist in power today when you speak of human rights.And in many ways,worse.
Once again Chrono, The"New"Iranian government wanted the Shah first and foremost, the monies were secondary,and that was another fact.
Believe what you will, I have done my reading.
I am sorry I am not writing what you want to see.

chronology: Malo. Thank you. Yes the Election of Mr Carter made a difference to Political Prisoners around the world. In many ways Mr Carter is everything we admire about 'America'. He gave hope to the hopeless, and led prisoners from torture cells with his Human Rights Policy. God bless him, he is a true American.

davidk14: .

The American people saw him differently as Preident. While he began his term with a 66% approval rating, this dropped to 34% approval by the time he left office, with 55% disapproving. Great job.

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chronology: David. People are changeble and unpridictable. American families have gone through some rough years these last few decades, I have no need to tell you that. It is inevitable they would say harsh things about their leaders. Even Jesus would be criticized if He were leading America during those times. But if a man stood up for you when you were having your finger nails ripped out, and few other people cared anything about you, you would see Mr Carter in a different light.

Look David, I understand your view of Mr Carter is probably formed by the fact that he speaks out on behalf of downtrodden Palestinians, but give the man his due, he is a credit to your country.

David, as a footnote on Mr Carter's Presidency. In a way America could have moved in a new direction permanently with his emphasis on Human Rights. The Roman Empire under Augustus began a new age of 'Pax Romana'. Augustus and others in Rome began to convince influential Romans that Peace was preferable to War. Rome had inherited the Greek 'War Cult' where War was glorified and violent conquest seen as the greatest aspiration of Rome. Augustus saw how much more could be achieved during Peace. Mr Reagan, George H Bush and Mr Clinton seem to have ignored Mr Carters Human Rights policy, but George W Bush is curiously interesting in the Human Rights subject. People scream about his War on Terror, but look at other aspects of Mr Bush's Presidency and he is interesting indeed. Note how he personally began investigations in Abu Grave. Am expecting Mr Outback to rip me up for 'sh@thouse paper' about this, but there you go.

davidk14: .

Chrono said: Look David, I understand your view of Mr Carter is probably formed by the fact that he speaks out on behalf of downtrodden Palestinians, but give the man his due, he is a credit to your country.

David responds: Here you are wrong…again. The Palestinian people “are” downtrodden because of the war mongers in the Gaza as well as many in the PA. I know you are and that’s fine. As far as a credit to this country as a President, I don’t think so. As an ex-president, he’s done a better job as an ordinary citizen.

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Chrono said:

David, as a footnote on Mr Carter's Presidency. In a way America could have moved in a new direction permanently with his emphasis on Human Rights. Mr Reagan, George H Bush and Mr Clinton seem to have ignored Mr Carters Human Rights policy.

David responds:

You know recently, President Obama rolled out “the red carpet” for China President Ho Jintao.

Jimmy Carter was at the state dinner as well. We all know that Carter received the Nobel Peace Prize.

What a crock of shit.

President Jintao has in jail, the current Nobel Peace Prize Winner Liu who is serving an 11-year sentence at Jinzhou Prison in northeastern China for urging sweeping changes to Beijing's one-party communist political system.

China was infuriated when the Nobel committee awarded the prize to the 54-year-old literary critic, describing it as "an attack on its political and legal system."

Authorities placed Liu's supporters, including his wife, Liu Xia, under house arrest to prevent anyone from picking up his prize.

And you know what President Barack Obama said?

“I regret that Liu and his wife were not allowed to go to the ceremony as I and first lady Michelle Obama did when I won the peace prize last year.”

I regret? That's it?

The last time a Nobel Peace Prize was not handed out was in 1936, when Adolf Hitler prevented German pacifist Carl von Ossietzky from accepting his award.


Human rights?

And President Carter attended the state dinner honoring the President of China?

So much for Carter standing up for human rights. At a minimum, he NEVER should have gone to the dinner.

Even three of the four congressional leaders boycotted the dinner. Even the Senate Majority Speaker Reid (D) didn’t show up. A few days early he called Jintao “a dictator”.

Chrono, as I have told you many times before, you really need to do research on the topic before you post.


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chronology: David, you live in a world of your own. A world of your own facts and figures which you twist and turn to ram any round peg into any square hole. You are so self deluded you even think one of the greatest living Americans is a failure and hypocrite. Are you seriously saying the United States can exclude every head of state of every country with Human Rights issues? The United Nations welcomed Idi Amin when 'Big Daddy' was keeping severed Human heads in his Refrigerator.

David, admit it, you Zionist Guys just cannot forgive Mr Carter for calling Israel an 'Apartheid State'. No am not going to go through the list of all the countries who should have their Ambassadors sent home from Washington. It would be a very long list indeed.

Malobear: Chrono, Jimmy Carter was the governer of Georgia before he was President. The one thing him and Bill Clinton,governor of Arkansas (and were my parents live) have in common. When you ask the people of those states what they ever did, No one knows lol I saw Hillary at a convention of Arkansas farmers. She could not relate to them and couldnt get out of there fast enough. I was close enough to hear her say to one of her bodyguards. "Get me out of here quick" lol (too funny)

davidk14: .

Chrono started his rant by saying:

David, you live in a world of your own. A world of your own facts and figures which you twist and turn to ram any round peg into any square hole.

David responds: I don’t pull facts and figures out of thin air. As Malo said to you earlier, I am sorry I am not writing what you want to see.

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Chrono said: You are so self deluded you even think one of the greatest living Americans is a failure and hypocrite.

David responds: I said he was a miserable president and that he was a much better private citizen than a president. Get your facts right.

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Chrono said: Are you seriously saying the United States can exclude every head of state of every country with Human Rights issues?

David responds: I didn’t say anything like that at all. I believe what Sun-tzu (a Chinese general and military strategist from 400 BC) believed…Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
Get your facts straight.

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Chrono said: The United Nations welcomed Idi Amin when 'Big Daddy' was keeping severed Human heads in his Refrigerator.

David responds: On June 27, 1976, four terrorists forced an Air France Airbus to land in Uganda, with the blessing of Idi Amin in the heart of distant Africa. They quickly demanded that Israel release 53 convicted terrorists. The hijackers freed the French crew and non-¬Jewish passengers, while retaining 105 Jewish and Israeli hostages. The IDF Special Force soldiers freed the hostages in a lightning attack, killing all eight terrorists in the process. Tragically, force commander Yoni Netanyahu, the brother of the current Prime Minister of Israel, was killed as he led the hostages toward the safety of the aircraft; additionally, two hostages were killed in the crossfire inside the airport.

After Israel raided the Ugandan airport and saved most of the hostages, United Nations Secretary General Kurt Waldheim "condemned Israel" for the violation of "Ugandan sovereignty."

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davidk14: Chrono said: David, admit it, you Zionist Guys just cannot forgive Mr Carter for calling Israel an 'Apartheid State'.

David responds: Carter was selling a book back in 2006. If you don’t know how books are sold, the authors usually stretch the truth as far as possible to get the book sold.

Regarding the title of his book Carter said:

"It's not Israel. That's been most of the controversy because people assume it's about Israel. It's not.
Life & Times – Transcript – 12/14/06

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"I've never alleged that the framework of apartheid existed…so it was a very clear distinction."
"CNN.com"

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In his review of Carter's book Joseph Lelyveld…

"...the use of "apartheid" by Carter is "basically a slogan, not reasoned argument".
The New York Review of Books

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David continues:

Dr. Tashbih Sayyed, a Shi'ite Pakistani scholar, has visited Israel in attempt to "see if there was any truth in the media allegations that Israel was an apartheid state". He concluded that Israeli Arabs are protected by Israel's democratic principles; the Muslim Arab citizens of Israel are afforded all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizenship. He noted that Israel is one of the few countries in the Middle East where Arab women can vote. In contrast to the non-Israeli Arab world, Arab women in Israel enjoy the same status as men, and have the right to vote and to be elected to public office. Muslim women, according to Sayyed, are in fact are more liberated in Israel than in any Muslim country, since Israeli law prohibits polygamy, child marriage, and female sexual mutilation.

Tashbih, Sayyed. "A Muslim in a Jewish Land". Muslim World Today. Retrieved 17 June 2010

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According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories

Israel maintained the full range of normal equal rights found in Western liberal democracies.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm

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Fifty-three Stanford University faculty from various fields other than Middle East, Palestine or Israel studies, as well as staff from Stanford's conservative think tank, the Hoover Institution signed a letter expressing the view that "Israel is not an Apartheid State" and that "the State of Israel has nothing in common with apartheid"; that within its national territory Israel is a liberal democracy in which Arab citizens of Israel enjoy civil, religious, social, and political equality. They alleged that likening Israel to apartheid South Africa was a "smear," part of a campaign of "malicious propaganda."
Scholars for Peace in the Middle East Retrieved *******-20

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Dr. Mohammed Wattad, a Palestinian Israeli Member of the Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, criticized the analogy in a 2010 interview, saying:

“As an Israeli citizen, I belong to a political entity… I have no other home than the State of Israel. I am a proud Israeli citizen but that doesn’t mean I can’t criticize it… At the same time I am a proud Arab national...

“In an apartheid regime, there is no possibility of judicial review, because the judges are appointed by the regime and all serve one ideology. This is not the case in Israel… There is a very strong, independent Supreme Court in Israel. In an apartheid regime [unlike in Israel] there is no place to go to argue against the government,”
www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi

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davidk14: So, regarding Carters comments, it just doesn’t matter. He was selling a book…as you can see “from my research”.

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So back to your original comment… David, you live in a world of your own. A world of your own facts and figures which you twist and turn to ram any round peg into any square hole.

David says: Is that the best you can do? Obviously so. You ‘are’ living in your own world not of “mis-information” but of “dis-information”.

You should volunteer to work with the folks in Pallywood. They would just love for you to go work for them.

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chronology: Malo. You have to keep in Mind Hillary is an International Politician. The amount of information she has to absorb each day on multiple subjects is breathtaking. The problem of skinheads attacking immigrants or homeless people in your town or mine is important to you and me, and very important to any Mexican or Muslim family. But Hillary can only take in so much information, like any Politician. And if we raise International Problems with her during questions you have to remember she is a hundred times better informed than we are, (even David). When Bill Clinton visited Ireland some years ago, people started asking him questions about U.F.O.s Mr Clinton never said 'get me out of here', but he could be forgiven if he did.

David. Mr Carter and his wife Rosalyn have spent their lives campaigning and working for Human Rights, and you expect people reading your Post to seriously take your cynical remark that he made a cheap comment about Israel just to sell a Book? Am deliberately avoiding the Apartheid issue out of respect for Jewish people. Trust me David, if you demand an debate on Israels Apartheid situation, Israel will come out looking bad, so it be fella.

davidk14: .

Crono,

There are not many that can deal with that crap 24/7/365. I’m not a Hillary fan since she, in her own words, is a “modern progressive” but her philosophy is not in play really in her current position. Just being a woman dealing with the Muslum culture has got to be terribly difficult.

Regarding Carter, Human Rights:
Yes, Carter works very hard in the area of human rights.

Chrono said: Trust me David, if you demand an debate on Israels Apartheid situation, Israel will come out looking bad, so it be fella

David said:

Chrono, I’m reposting something from my last post…

After Israel raided the Ugandan airport and saved most of the hostages, United Nations Secretary General Kurt Waldheim "condemned Israel" for the violation of "Ugandan sovereignty."

Here is a situation where Israel made the decision to save the lives of their own people and the UN condemns Israel but not the terrorist organization or Uganda? So, ya think the debate on anything else Israel does or does not do is going to be any different regarding any other subject? Some debate that Israeli’s are Nazi’s. Do you agree with that too?

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chronology: Good Post David. Am with you, thumbs up to the I.D.F. boys and girls they were a credit to Israel that day. And yes, the U.N. would rather invite a Guy who keeps severed Human Heads in his refrigerator than the brave young Israelis and Mossad Guys who rescued their brethren. Good Post David.

FogofWar: "No it is a brutal and vicious mindset that has grown in the I.D.F. that they can do anything they want to Palestinians, and, safe and sound behind the 'Wall of the U.S.A.' they will never face the music."

All the while Hamas; and Palestinian suicide bombers entice them into no option but to engage. Mosab Hassan Yousef said he recalled watching as his father and other leaders of Hamas started riots and assaulting IDF soldiers to force them to engage; so as to destroy the peace talks between Israel and the PA (of which Yasser Arafat and the PA were the ones behind Hamas' actions); then running out before the IDF responded; only to stand off in the distance on a hilltop and watch it from safety. Mosab has seen the actions of the IDF several dozen times; a few times it was him they were after; destroying buildings to get to him….yet he still worked for the Israeli Shin Bet; giving the info to the IDF they needed to stop the Palestinian group Hamas.

According to Mosab Hassan Yousef; son of Hamas founding member Hassan Yousef; and key leader of Hamas throughout the 1990s; it is Hamas and the Palestinian actions that are responsible for the Israeli attacks.

Terrorist organizations like Hamas hide among women and children to create civilian casualties; so that people like you will blame Israel. They don't give a conventional military any other option but to engage among civilians; because the only side that can suffer bad image from this is the conventional military. This is the basis of terrorism…how can you defend terrorism?

"Israel no doubt has the same problem with Democrats asking about the position of Palestinians Human Rights"

If the Republicans didn't care about Palestinian rights; then why was the Bush Administration providing CIA funds into Palestine? Why was the CIA funding the Palestinian Authority; providing water for Palestinians; and aid???

…just another one of those things that the PA didn't want average Joe westerner to know about.


"Am not so sure Mr Egg. If you are a Congressman or woman in Washington and you have kids in school and a mortgage to pay, friends who you love, in a job you love doing. Would you throw all that away…"

Are you suggesting that not one person in Congress has any morals Chrono? Come on man.

"Today a Congressman seen as 'Anti Israel' may be stripped of his job and his Pension, accused of outlandish s*^ crimes and driven out of Washington."

And where is your proof of this Chrono? Please provide evidence this occurs before making such allegations.


Chrono; Iraqi insurgents today are Iranian; or supplied by Iranians. They are supportive of Iran….and I can't see Iran trying to bring the US into the war as well if Israel invaded them. Why would you turn the world against you after being invaded?

FogofWar: "i,myself , was inside of a terror attack.
it was called the intifada, the second one
almost everyday a terrorist got inside israel and bombed himself
can you imagine this kind of reality ? would you give your kids this kind of reality ? no. and you will do whatever it takes to stop those people."

The Second infitada was blamed on Hamas; and it's support of suicide bombings. What Mosab Hassan Yousef has released in his autobiography; "Son of Hamas"; was his workings with the Israeli Shin Bet while a top member of Hamas. While tracking a man responsible for arming the suicide bombers (who Mosab spent time in jail with); he tracked down two Fatah members meeting with him. The men were confirmed to be the men sent by Yasser Arafat himself to create the infitada.

Mosab sat in Yasser Arafat's office; and in meetings with Arafat and his father; Hamas founder Hassan Yousef. Arafat asked Hassan Yousef to start riots against Israel.

While Israel was seeking peace agreements with Arafat; willing to give back all the land claimed after the 6 days war; and recognizing Arafat as the independent government of an independent nation of Palestine; Arafat; unable to decline without the world seeing he had no interest in peace with Israel; set up the 2nd Infitada to force Israel to take action; thus breaking the agreement without it being his fault.

The Palestinian Authority used innocent Israeli civilians to escape the responsibility of being a legitimate government; having to pay for electricity and other utilities supplied to its people by Israel; but still keep the world's eyes on their people under attack. Arafat used Israeli and Palestinian civilians as a means to keep the world feeling sorry for him. And this is the words of a Palestinian man who has climbed the ranks of the Palestinian movements; and served his people for decades. He was there when his father started the 2nd Infitada that Armygirl is speaking of…and watched as the PA and Hamas used their own people as lambs to slaughter; all for the sake of avoiding peace agreements with Israel.

"before you are fast to call the palestines "poor" and "innocent" do a little background check , those poor people want the death of israel.
and when they would want peace , they will get it , that is for sure."

And that is exactly what the Palestinian Mosab Hassan Yousef says as well.

"Anyway it doesn't need to. if the war in Iraq has shown anything it is that the best way to fight is small groups using 'terror' tactics."

Eggman, you highly underestimate Iran's military if you think these tactics would be their strategy. Iran's military is mighty and well prepared.

"But Nuclear Weapons only against military forces in the field, not cities, civilians should be kept safe."

Military's have ways of dealing with nuclear warfare; civilians do not. Nuclear weapons are never used against military forces in the field; it would be impractical. Nuclear weapons are people killers; and their only purpose is catastrophic death tolls; among military and civilian personnel alike. Any nation that would even threaten to use these weapons like you suggest has no right to be in possession of such weapons. I am proud to say that Canada is 100% Nuclear arms free…and always has been.

FogofWar: "What we should have done is this, we should have surrounded the city. We should have dropped leaflets telling the population that the United States in 48 hours was going to send one plane over the city and destroy the city completely [whether by nuclear or an equivalent conventional munitions]. As the population left, we would also have also caught or killed the rat basterds fleeing a sinking ship. Then afterwards, the US would respond to the Middle East that this was only one plane and also tell the world that the US is serious about its intentions of a free and democratic Iraq and anyone who gets in the way will be treated the same. You think that these backwards bumpkins would have taken us seriously then? I think so."

They did give the citizens warning of the attack. We always do. It is required to fight urban ops; as a military cannot engage enemies surrounded by civilians without extremely high casualties. So, we issue warnings that we are coming in; blockading the city; and allowing only one way out…then we set up a checkpoint; and screen those leaving. If they are civilians; they are escorted to protection; if they are insurgents; they are arrested. Those that remain behind are considered a threat until a military can clear them. We cannot bomb a city; even if we evacuate it; because there will always be civilians that won't leave…so a conventional ground force must be sent in; and using superior force and tactics; we clear out the bad guys; and detain the unarmed; until they can be confirmed non-threat. It minimizes civilian casualties; bombing the city would have killed them all.

Yes; it does create high casualties among our soldiers clearing the city; as even the best tactics still force us to enter a room; exposing ourselves to a well fortified defender. That's what we get paid to do. We know the risks; we train for it…and we see it. I've been killed in our training exercises several times; and not by doing anything wrong. You open a door; they know where you're coming. It's a sad reality of our job; but we are aware of it.

"David. If the Iranian Army does try to attack U.S. Troops like you say, just Nuke em. Why should young American Girls and Boys in the Services have to mess around with these people?"

Like I said; anyone willing to use Nuclear arms in this manner does not deserve to be in possession of them. You are taking the cowards way out; and murdering (it's not killing in this sense; this is just plain murder) innocent people needlessly.

A civilian in Iran is not taking part in this; and they are not asking for this. We know our jobs; and we are the ones putting ourselves into this danger fully aware of the consequences. There is a difference between confirming someone a threat and shooting them; and just shooting someone and sorting out the dead bodies. Militaries do not perform in this unprofessional manner.

FogofWar: "Malo , the people of gaza/palestine support hamas
why ? cause hamas attacks israel ,
and believe me that without their support hamas is nothing."

And again; EXACTLY what Armygirl is saying here is EXACTLY what Mosab Yousef said as well. He watched Hamas go from one of the major players in Palestine in the 1980s; to virtually non existent in the early 1990s. It wasn't until the 2nd Infitada that the PA arose Hamas again. The support of Hamas from the people is what gave them the power.

And as far as running for politics….that was Hassan Yousef's concept as well. Hassan Yousef; according to his son Mosab; is one of the most caring men in the world; but he is blinded by his agenda. He has never killed a single person; nor could he…but somewhere along his path; he rationalized allowing others to do it; and to allow others to get killed. Mosab helped him try and get his personal goals in life back on track; and as an influential leader of Hamas; running as a politician would have been that route. Had this actually occurred; Hassan Yousef may have been able to negotiate peace with Israel; as Hassan began to realize his Hamas goal of exterminating Israel was impossible. He began to accept the existence of Israel; and urged Hamas to do the same; seeking to achieve unity among Israel and Palestine. Hassan was arrested; and Hamas used his political runnings; and support; to gain control of Palestine. The people voted for Hamas because of Hassan Yousef; but Hamas led Hassan's political agenda down their own path. To gain support of the people is what made them strong.

""Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and Naval vessels to bomb densely crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks mosques and slums, to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command and control, no army and calls it a war. It is not a war. It is murder""

Not when the NATION of Israel is using jets, naval vessels etc. to bomb individuals who are committing war crimes that are recognized by the UN security council as war crimes (Hamas is a recognized international terrorist organization) who are hiding among these refugee camps, in these schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums.

Mosab Yousef talks about when the IDF blew his parent's house up looking for him as well. He was there on the streets, with an M16 (given to him by Israeli Shin Bet) while the IDF tried to kill him (The IDF had no idea of his workings with the Shin Bet).

He talks about the riots in prison that forced Israel to retaliate in order to gain control of the situation; and the same occurred within refugee camps.

What is Israel to do when refugees begin rioting within the camp; destroying the place; assaulting guards and trying to kill?

What is Isreal to do when a man is hiding in a school; building bombs in there that are used to kill hundreds of Israeli teenagers?

What is Israel supposed to do when a known international terrorist is running an organization from his apartment; and does not leave; forcing the IDF to come to him?

What is Israel supposed to do when Hamas uses a mosque as a weapon's cache and HQ?

FogofWar: "But isn't terror also using ammo with white phosphorus and depleted uranium? It depends on your definition really."

Terrorism is defined as the use of terror to deliberately target civilians as a means to gain a political objective. Israel is not DELIBERATELY targeting civilians; Israel is DELIBERATELY targeting known terrorists. There is a huge difference.

"Moony responds: Those children didn't attack Israel, unless you're holding them responsible for it aswell, i wouldn't be surprised."

Those children didn't attack Isreal, no….but Hamas puts those children into harms way. Hamas intends for Israel to kill Palestinian children; because it makes Palestinians; and the world angry with Israel.

Mosab Yousef was among the highest ranks of Hamas…he dealt with this tactic personally; and tried to understand the rational reasons for it…he couldn't…it's not rational…it's hateful.

Israel does not target children. Hamas uses it's own people's children as fuel for a fire. Hamas intends for those children to die…that's what they want; NOT Israel. Mosab shows exactly why people see the actions of Israel the way they do…and why the people of Palestine cannot see it. Hamas is the ONLY reason there is no peace between your people. Hamas wants you to die.

"So for you david, those 1500 people who died, did not all attack Israel."

And Moony; ask yourself; where was Hamas to defend them? I'll tell you where they were. They were standing off in the distance; far away from the threat; safely watching those people….YOUR people die for their cause.

Moony; ask yourself this simple question:

Why; if Hamas leaders care so much about defending Palestine; will they recruit people for suicide bombing of the Israeli devil; calling it the greatest glory and martyrdom….yet they refuse to take part in it themselves?

Mosab watched (as he was there for them) several Hamas figures fight their ground; using conventional military weapons against the IDF, from their apartments; while the leaders of Hamas ran out the back door to safety. Where's their martyrdom? Where is their glory and honour? They don't care about you…they don't care about peace. They care for nothing than their own political agenda; and are willing to use anyone as a sacrifice for their cause without hesitation. The only life that matters to them…is their own.

"There are other ways to deal with things than disproportionate wars."

Like the peace talks Israel has issued? The ones that give back Palestine everything??? The ones that the PA declined???

"Incased you forgot, there was a truce between Hamas and Israel for 6 months. You know who broke it? Israel."

Do you know why? Ask Mosab Hassan Yousef.

FogofWar: "Some Palestinians may argue the same thing about the settlers and about the state of Israel itself. Theres two sides to every story."

And there truly are two sides to every story. As a man who has not only seen both sides of the story; but worked with both sides of the story; Mosab Hassan Yousef reveals the only way to peace.

Nowhere does he say that Israel hasn't committed acts that he disapproves of….but ultimately; it was Hamas that put Israel into a position in which they had to take action; and decide on the right or wrong course of action…a task that is not nearly as easy as many think.

Mosab said it best himself; Palestine is not the enemy to Isreal. Israel is not the enemy to Palestine. Palestine is the threat to Palestine. Hamas is the enemy to all. Hamas; and the political agenda of the Islamic fundamentalists is the true enemy. They are the ones who are creating the violent actions from both sides; and forcing both sides to take extreme action against the other. Their ultimate goal is not only pan-Islamism; and the destruction of Israel…it is global domination of THEIR Islam.

Mosab Hassan Yousef had his moment of realization while in prison for attempting to purchase weapons to kill Israelis. It was shortly before that he agreed to be a collaborator with the Shin Bet. He agreed as a way in; to kill Israel from the inside…but while in prison with Hamas leaders; he saw the reality of his own people.

Hamas was torturing Palestinians to confess to things…things they didn't even do. Hamas was torturing and abusing their own people…all for the sake of creating hate induced separation between Israel and Palestine. He met his uncle in prison…the uncle who abandoned him when his father was imprisoned….and his uncle who constantly fought over control.

It was here that Mosab asked himself the real question to the problem between Palestine and Israel; and so I pose it to you as well…as a Palestinian like Mosab:

Suppose Hamas succeeded in their agenda. Let's pretend for a second that this happened. Let's pretend Israel did agree to Hamas' terms; and the nation of Israel fell. All Jewish people left the region; and Palestine; as it was pre 1948 was re-established. What would it change?

The answer is nothing. Mosab himself saw it….nothing would change. There would still be war; a 'holy crusade' for Islamic control of the region. His uncle would fight his father for control of the holy land; and for the "best seat" (read the book and you'll get it).

The answer is simple. Even without Israel; Hamas would still exist…and Hamas would still be using it's own people as fuel for its fire; slaughtering; and allowing them to be slaughtered by the thousands.

So the answer is simple….until the Islamic community, as a whole, within Palestine comes to the realization that acceptance of those in the rest of the world is ultimately what the Quran seeks as Islamic victory of the holy land; and that working together with your 'enemy' will defeat them (as they won't be an enemy when they work as an ally to aid and protect you); there will never be peace between Israel and Palestine.

chronology: Fog. There is a term called 'Empirical Observation'. It means a number of things, and can be used in a number of discipline. As a soldier you would make the 'Empirical observation' that the most likely place for an ambush would be in such and such a place. If asked to 'prove' your observation was right, maybe you could maybe you couldn't. In Medicine, Empirical Observations are much the same, a Doctor is often guided by long experience, not facts in deciding procedure.

You are entirely correct Fog, my choice of words was suggestive that Congressmen and women suffer Martyrdom for standing up to the Israeli Lobby, I withdraw those words. But 'Empirical Observation' of Washington Politics suggest criticism of Israel does no good for a Congressman's career. Can you name a critic of Israel who has gone far in Washington?

Again, you are right in saying my words were too dramatic.

davidk14: .

Chrono said: But 'Empirical Observation' of Washington Politics suggest criticism of Israel does no good for a Congressman's career. Can you name a critic of Israel who has gone far in Washington?

David responds: Senator Rand Paul (R) of Kentucky (son of Senator Ron Paul who ran for President) was quoted as saying two days ago that he wants to stop all funding to Israel. Rand Paul is / was a darling of the Tea Party movement. The Tea Party as well as Democrats and Republicans from the Senate and House responded to his comments that the American people stand with Israel and that Senator Paul’s statements were his own and did not represent them.

Senator Paul has received numerous communications from the American people including me.

The following is my letter to the Senator:

Senator Rand Paul
1019 State Street
Bowling Green, KY 42101

Dear Senator,

With all due respect, are you completely out of your mind? By removing Israel’s yearly funds, you would sign Israel’s eventual death warrant.

You would be giving…no..handing…Israel’s enemies a green light to destroy her since of course you would not come to her aid if attacked. There are 7 million Israeli Jews facing Hamas in the south whose Charter states the genocide of Israeli’s is its ultimate goal. Then you have Hezbollah to the north that just toppled the government in Lebanon and the nut jobs in Iran that supports both of these groups whose ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel. Not to mention Syria’s future roll in her destruction. And now with the crisis in Egypt, a thirty year truce may be ending.

And if you deny these facts, then you perhaps have no business being a United States Senator.

You should have stated your position on Israel during your run for the Senate, but then you never would have been elected. Sort of reminds me of the election rhetoric from candidate Obama before he was elected President.

With the yearly deficit of 1.5 trillion dollars, go after the low hanging fruit like Obamacare, the US Post Office, AmTrack, the planned super trains, and all those other programs that do not have a ROI. That’s where the real savings are.

The 3 billion the US invests in Israel returns a huge ROI or are you not aware of that?

You should reconsider your position since your position would definitely lead to Israel’s attempted destruction and the death of tens of millions, and the loss of life won’t be just Jews in the region.

With all due respect, you used to have my support, but now, I have very serious questions about your credibility.

Sincerely,

________________________________


So Chrono, there are those, in this case a Republican Senator, that do not support Israel.

.

FogofWar: "Can you name a critic of Israel who has gone far in Washington?"

Have you considered that maybe this is due to the fact that you wouldn't get very far in politics by siding with terrorists?

FogofWar: Put all emotions aside; and look at this from a political view. A politician may seem cold to you; but the reality of their job is that they need to make cold; rash decisions that affect the outcome of lives. Their job is to find rational resolve to problems; in this case; that are causing death. There is no room for emotional attachment or personal preference or opinion in this matter; you must look at the most logical and realistic solution.

Which is the more logical party to support:

A.) A government of an independent nation; whose armed forces are targeting men responsible for attacking its civilians; or

B.) A radical terrorist organization; whose ultimate goal is the destruction of an entire nation; the take-over of one of the most fought over lands in the world; and who deliberately target innocent civilians; while hiding among their own civilians in order to avoid military confrontation.

Which of these parties can you logically deal with?

chronology: Fog, so a critic of Israel is siding with terrorists? that is a strong statement to make. No I don't think Politicians in the States are being hanged, burned and crucified by the Jewish Lobby, but from all the talk we hear on Political Talk Shows and Politician memoir's we can reasonably assume, that however Congressmen would like to take a more humane position prompted by American Values, they find themselves corralled by the Jewish Lobby into supporting Israel, no matter how much it sticks in a Congressman's throat at times to do so. Fog, I am not in any way anti-Jewish. I have never in my life said a hateful thing about Jewish people, but there can be no doubt that Jewish/Zionist influence in the Media pressurises American Politicians and their families, and distorts American understanding of the Palestinians plight. The Palestinians have no real voice in America, Israel has millions (David is one of them), and many of those millions are in prominent positions in American T.V. and Media in general. And Fog, if you think people in Washington approve of the brutal attack on Gaza in 2008 you do not understand Washington. They may bite their lips and look the other way, but that does not mean they approve of Israel's behaviour.

David, American Aid to Israel makes sense. The Israeli's are no friends of the West in reality, but when you consider the other countries surrounding them, it makes sense to keep Israel afloat.

FogofWar: Really Chrono? Because I've heard actual Palestinians talk about the aid from the US that went to them. I've heard Palestinians talk about working for US funded companies that brought in water and medical care to their people. I've heard a Palestinian who worked with Yasser Arafat talk about CIA funds going into the Palestinian Authority to help them build a stable governing body of their people. This sure doesn't sound like politicians hanging to me. That sure doesn't sound like Washington forcing everyone to side entirely with Israel. That sure doesn't sound like politics dominating American people's desire to help people in need.

Israel is no friend? Then why have they promised their back to Canada after we helped them in the Yom Kippur War? Why have they distributed aid to other nations in need; and supported our movements to provide aid as well?

No one said anyone approves of every action Israel has taken….but like Patton has said; "a good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed in the indefinite future."

Mistakes are going to be made; but it is better to commit 100% to an imperfect strategy; than it is to hesitate and lose control of the situation. Mistakes will be made; but at least their strength will remain.

So, yes; Israel has done things that we don't approve of; much as the US has done things you may not approve of; but that doesn't justify taking no action against terrorism that is killing their civilians.


Palestinians have no voice in America? Have you ever been to America? Pro Palestinian rallies happen on the streets all the time. I got stuck in the middle of one in Montreal just this summer.