Pastor Jones and the Koran burning ! (Page 3)

StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: hellbhoy says:
"Sits your an argumentative idiot and like I posted earlier."

(laughs) Pot calling kettle black.

hellbhoy says:
"Also I don't need you to copy huge paragraphs of my posts to appear like "LOOK PEEPS SEE HOW STUPID I MAKE THIS PERSON SEEM".Just type "Hellbhoy I don't agree because ......",I know what I typed and I'm sure people read the postings know what I typed as well.You took up sooooo much space when you could have used less space,but like I said you needed to prove you point to the whole world like you so much smarter than me."

You do it your way, I'll do it mine. If you don't care for it, I have two suggestions: 1: Place your thoughts in a blog, rather than a public Forum 2: Lodge a complaint with Wireclub Administration if you think I've done something wrong.

hellbhoy says:
"Quote from Jones 'It was intended to stir the pot; if you don’t shake the boat, everyone will stay in their complacency'." (followed by unworkable link)

When you post a link (technically against Wireclub rules, but no one really seems to care if it's in a post like this), if you don't take steps to defeat the Wireclub anti-spamming protocols, parts of your link will be replaced by a string of asterisks. You have to break up strings of numbers, or make some other effort to sidestep the protocol. Your link is unworkable. However, I was able to go to the website for the Daily Mail, and if I'm not mistaken, it's a "tabloid" media source, not to be taken as "serious" journalism. I would ask readers to just take a look at the Daily Mail home page ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/

... and see if you consider that a credible source of information.

hellbhoy says:
"This is admissible in High court as probable cause as an act of racial incitement and can be used against him ... That is just one of many quotes he has said that could be used in a court of law as a KNOWING "premeditated" act that will lead to violence from a racial community spreading hatred like 'I don't care if it causes violence'."

I remind you that Terry Jones resides in the USA. Obviously you know nothing of our Constitution, the First Amendment or Americal law in general (probably ANY law in general). Law in the UK may be very different in that regard - not living there, I don't know, and don't pretend to.

Just use some common sense: Jones' despicable, irresponsible act is pissing off every sensible person that knows about it, yet he walks free. Why do you think that is? (Hint: Because he's broken no laws.)

hellbhoy says:
"He is a Pastor and has already broken his contract with GOD and JESUS,"Do onto others as you would have them do onto you".This quote says don't do anything you would not wish others to do to you,he wouldn't want the Muslims to burn the Bible but he burnt a Koran a direct violation of Christianity. "Respect/love one another as a brother",he has broken another promise he made to GOD and JESUS."

Well, then I suggest you take the matter up with God and Jesus.

hellbhoy says:
"He should be thrown out of the church immediately."

What church should he be thrown out of? He has his own church.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: hellbhoy says:
"My opinion here ! the pastor should have a gagging restraint to stop him from further attempts to cause public unrest.The tabloids and media should be asked/gagged not to publish any of the Pastors speeches or acts promoting his stupid crusade."

Suggesting to the media that they should ignore him is a fine idea. When Jones threatened, last October, to burn a Koran, it was heavily covered by the media. It was, after all, an interesting story. But this time, when he actually went ahead and burned one, he received MUCH less coverage. It was pretty much ignored by the television news networks, newspapers, etc. I'm guessing that those media sources were thinking along the same lines as what you're suggesting. It was, however, covered by online sources, which have far less concern about newsworthyness and ethics of what they report. But once the riots began, and the UN workers murdered, it became too much of a story to ignore.

But again, your suggestion that Jones and the media be subjected to a "gagging restraint" (that isn't a legal term) ignores the law. You can jump up and down and stamp your feet all you want to, but the law is the law. If you feel inclined to such futile gestures, and you feel that our First Amendment should be repealed, I suggest you write a letter to the President or some member of Congress. (Don't expect a reply.)

hellbhoy says:
"He should be asked to publicly announce an apology to the Muslim nation and ask forgiveness for not practicing what he preaches according to the Bible."

So write the guy a letter, or telephone him:

Rev. Terry Jones/Dove World Outreach Center
5805 NW 37th St
Gainesville, FL 3 2 6 5 3 - 0 8 0 6
telephone: (3 5 2) 3 7 1 - 2 4 8 7

hellbhoy says:
"I have relatives in the UK armed forces who have been or are ready to go into the Middle East conflict zones beside American troops.It is idiots like Pastor Jones who will cause more deaths or their deaths ..."

I agree. No argument here.

hellbhoy says:
"... by adding to the anger of oppressed nations who produce oil for the west so people like Sits can have cheap fuel,electricity,better economy,cheap PC for spamming his philosophy on social sites and so forth."

Hahaha! So, are you not using any "cheap fuel" or "electricity"? Are you not enjoying a "better economy"? Are you not using a "cheap PC"? What a hypocrite! It always make me laugh when someone leaves online opinions criticizing someone for leaving online opinions.

hellbhoy says:
"SOOOOO yes I'd like the American government to take some sort of action on this fool so my family have a better chance of returning from a tour of duty in DANGEROUS places.If the American government are seen to be taking some sort of action this may have a small chance of a calming effect on fanatical nutters not killing non Muslims."

See my above suggestion about writing a letter to the President or someone.

hellbhoy says:
"Afghanistan does not have huge oil resources but is very rich in mineral deposits and is the real reason why we are there."

So people say. But I find it puzzling that there has never been any attempt to exploit these supposed mineral deposits, nor any exports of them. Of course, the suggestion will be that because of the conflicts there, those resources have never been available to exploit. But those conflicts have never seemed to slow the flow of opium, hxy#@x and hashish. Hmm ...

hellbhoy says:
"Fighting the Taliban my ass so Americans can feel safe from terrorism,there were never any attacks on the UK or the US before we decided to overthrow Saddam for control of cheaper oil and there's the truth."

While I wouldn't exactly agree with your characterization of the Iraq war, I agree is was an unnecessary, unwarranted war. So please don't imply that I am, or was, in favor of the invasion of Iraq.
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hellbhoy
hellbhoy: Sits ! "WHATEVER DUDE" and I know more about American law than you think.

Why don't you actually post an opinion PLEASE on whether you think something should be done or not regardless of any comment on your flawed loopholed judicial system.I'd actually like to know what your thoughts are ?.I am refraining from entering into another debatable debacle with you at this moment awaiting for an honest answer from Sits the person.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: I think Pastor Terry Jones should shut the f~z& up and crawl back under the rock from where he came.

Satisfied?



hellbhoy, you might want to take a look at this thread:

http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=772986&ParentId=1069513

It's about the Westboro Baptist Church. This thread was started at a time when a case involving them was had been heard before the US Supreme Court, and it continued beyond the time that the Supreme Court rendered it's decision. The legal ramifications of their case are essentially the same as for Terry Jones: the right to free expression, and what sort of limitations there are to that right.

The case was on the constitutionality of their activities, which usually involve appearing at the funerals of American soldiers, picketing with signs carrying hateful slogans. Their supposed "message" is that God is punishing America for tolerating homosexuality. In reality, what they do is much like Terry Jones. They're hate-mongers. What they do is incite hatred, stir up trouble for no real reason other than to hate. They won their case. The First Amendment guarantees their right to say their message, even though that message is nothing but hatred.

I suggest you look this thread over.

By the way, Westboro Baptist Church say that they are also planning a Koran burning.
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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: Whoaaaaaaaaaa!

I actually appreciate you making the effort on this one 60s but its fair to say that you have just confused the issue for me furthermore.But thats fine.I have been only following this briefly on the news and only catching it sometimes in The West Australian Newspaper.

DPP: Director of public prosecutions being the boss of all other prosecuters in this state.


"Mr Tavener ruled that the prosecution needed to negate [invalidate] Mr. Barker's defence to the charge after accepting that the video was an artistic work."

That statement seemingly makes no sense:

I have to agree this statement makes no sense.The judge has technically ruled on this.

I know one issue that did crop up during this trial was who had the onus to prove who was right.In the traditional justice model based on the Westminister system it always innocent until proven guilty.The prosecution at one stage was trying to argue that the defence had to prove itself as being innocent.In many ways this is happening as governments around the world change centuries old laws e.g Double jeopardy and in the U.K if you take your right to silence it can be used against you in court to insinuate you "may" be guilty.

Maybe the court was trying to make clear that the onus of innocent till proven guilty was the main thing.This is probably why hewas acquitted.But it still doesnt make much sense.

But anyhow back on topic.

"In a trial like this, one would assume that the setting is adversarial. Each side wants to win. However, the way the story is worded, it appears that the defense and prosecution BOTH sought a clarification on that law from the Supreme Court. So why, in this adversarial setting, would a defense lawyer and prosecuting lawyer both be in agreement that the law is ambiguous and unclear?"

I agree.
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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: "~ In Supreme Court, Prosecutor Linton argued that Magistrate Tavener had previously erred because the wording of that law that Barker was charged upon placed the "onus [burden] of proof" on the accused – Barker.

Again, I'm confused. First the story said that the prosecution argued that the law was "ambiguous and unclear," but now, the story is saying that the prosecution argued that Magistrate Tavener made a legal error in his acquittal of Barker because since the "onus of proof" was on the defense, the defense should have had to prove innocence in order to gain acquittal. The story is contradicting itself with two completely different accounts of what the prosecution's argument before the Supreme Court "

Agreed.

"[Defense attorney] Percy said even if the Magistrate had erred in his assessment of the burden of proof, he had made positive findings about Mr Barker's evidence which suggested the outcome of the trial would not change."

This is the first indication in the story that Magistrate Tavener acquitted Barker on the "burden of proof” issue, and it didn't help that it came way at the end of the story."

Yes.

"~ I strongly object to the idea that someone could be criminally prosecuted for the expression of an idea – in this case, the offensive video.
~ I strongly object to the idea that someone could be criminally prosecuted, and the burden of proof would be placed upon THEM, not on the state. That is absolutely MEDIEVAL. Frankly, I'm shocked that Australia would have laws that would permit a situation where a person is assumed to be guilty unless proven innocent. That's just plain fx^&*& up! That's jurisprudence from the dark ages.

Both of those things are completely contrary to my values, my concept of freedom, and the way I think a state should conduct itself. Both of those things are completely contrary to the Constitution of the USA. "

You are entitled to your opinion on whether someone should be prosecuted for expressing themselves.I feel if that expression is extremely offensive and incites hatred then the person should be prosecuted just like the aforementioned Brendan O'Connor and his anti semitic video at the Perth Belltower(which can be viewed online).

I do however strongly agree with you on the fact of the onus of proof being on the prosecution and not defense.This has been the main reason I have followed this story.It is sad what is happening to our legal system here in Australia.But as I mentioned before Britain is much worse and even though our legal system is based on theirs(being a former British colony).We seem to ready to follow them more and more.

I put up these examples to make you think about various examples.It did that but also seemed to make me think a lot more about this case and the more I do the less it makes sense.

Lets see what happens when Magistrate Tavener reviews the case.
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chronology
chronology: Jack. The biggest problem at the moment with Free Speech is the 'Holocaust Denial' debate. You cannot understand History unless you debate History. Any debate of the Holocaust can land a writer in Prison for years. There is no doubt Jewish folks were treated shamefully in Europe, but people writing books saying the mass gassing of Jews was a myth of Anti German propaganda have landed in Jail for years.
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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: Another can of worms.

The evidence is overwhelming that there was a holocaust.

"there are known "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know."

Maybe Rumsfeld had a point.Whatever that was.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: By the way, Rumsfeld didn't originate that expression. It's a familiar concept in science.

It even has a wiki page:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns
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chronology
chronology: Jack. It is a touchy subject steeped in War Propaganda, but facts are very easily misplaced. When people think of 'The Holocaust' they usually remember pictures of a British Tommy bulldozing heaps of naked starved looking bodies into a mass grave. 'Victims of Genocide' is usually the words that go along with the picture.

The Camp where the picture was taken was Bergan-Belson. The inmates were political detainees. The SS Guards who ran the Camp did their best to keep conditions and prisoners healthy, but the chaos of the times led to a break down in food and medical supplies. When the SS handed over to the British they explained a Typhus epidemic was breaking out. The British Army did the best they could, but tens of thousands of people died anyway. They are the people you see being bulldozed into mass graves.

An Australian Team working at the Trablinka 'Death Camp' used ground penetrating sonar to try and find the mass graves said to be there, they found nothing. The Australians then drilled sample holes to check for Human Remains, no human remains was found.

Towards the end of the War, the Colossus Computer at Menwith Hill found a way to decipher the German Ultra/Enigma Machine they used to encrypt messages. Not one message was ever recovered about 'Gassing' people. There was stacks of other incriminating evidence about killing terrorists etc, but not one word about 'Gassing' people, despite the fact that Auschwitz was on the Enigma Network and it's messages routinely deciphered. Reconnaissance Photographs show no evidence at all of any activity consistent with incidents described at Auschwitz.

Am not a 'Holocaust Denier', am just a Guy who has yet to see any real evidence of such an event.
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KrAsH
KrAsH: Were you born a dickhead chrono or just actively chose to be one?

Theres overwhelming evidence that there were gas chambers,namely from the mouths of those that were there and witnessed it and even those who admitted to the crimes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp
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hellbhoy
hellbhoy: Thanks Sits for your opinion on the Pastor.Read your links.

Seems like at some point trouble is brewing ahead with the Pastors actions and what he has planned for future protestations.I feel the least action to be put on him is to be denounced by all the Christian Churches to distance the Pastor as a political upstart and nothing to do with the faith.And the media asked not to promote his crusade by giving him coverage so they can sell papers or increased viewing figures in the hope he'll just abandon his stupidity.
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davidk14
davidk14: Chrono said:

"Am not a 'Holocaust Denier', am just a Guy who has yet to see any real evidence of such an event."


David responds:

And this from a guy who posts here on Wire?

No real evidence that 6 million Jews and millions of others were not murdered by the Nazi’s in dozens of death camps?

That is the definition of a Holocaust denier.

You Chrono are a sick man and a liar. And Outback uses you as a reference?

Very disturbing. Very, very disturbing.

.
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franklin1950
franklin1950: i have a friend [ yes a friend still ] who has strongly voiced similar conspiritorial and denial views about the jews .
once ; however it happend that a thought seed enterd his head and was eccepted he had found a target of blame for the ills of the world .

he displayed the same venimous rage when when discussind george bush . an inexplicable hatred.


you never know whats inside a person till it comes out .
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: The extent to which chronology posts fictional information - obviously made up - PROVEN repeatedly to be just made up - it really makes me wonder if, as Jack has suggested, chronology is just playing a sick game of trying to get a rise from readers.

In this case, if he really means what he's said here, he's just a sick f#^#. Or if he's just trying to be provocative by posting that sewage, he's just a sick fxw~. Either way, chronology is one sick f*x%.

In his latest post, the most odious of any he's made yet, he says:

"Am not a 'Holocaust Denier', am just a Guy who has yet to see any real evidence of such an event."

This is like saying, "I'm not fat, just obese."

Of course, he provides no references to any of that garbage he posted. It's just made up bullshit.

He seems to enjoy taking defending the undefendable, such as Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church.

He's just a sick f^~x.
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hellbhoy
hellbhoy: Chrono google genocidal holocaust in world war two mate,then see if you don't find any real evidence.Videos,pictures,testimonies and not just Jewish but German soldiers crying their eyes out because they did what they did under the Nazi regime orders against their better judgement,not forgetting British and American archives of atrocities ....... the list is endless.

WAKE UP IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED !.Political prisoners my ass ,they were all mostly Jewish except some Jewish sympathizers who got sent there for helping them escape the Third Reich's impending doom.
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Outbackjack
Outbackjack: Its sad that this thread has devolved into a holocaust denial.
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StuckInTheSixties
StuckInTheSixties: Holocaust denial is always sad.

And disgusting.
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