Is the United States a Police State? (Page 15)

lavendar_star: On the illegal immigrant argument we have the same issue in the U.K and with the hostility and the blame game to suit, but its not illegal immigrants hiring themselves its Americans be them liberal or conservatives types. As in they U.K they occupy the lower paid jobs i.e nanny, cleaner, labourer etc and the reason they are hired is because employers know that they can treat them worser, pay them less and the fact that many native citizens do not want to do these jobs as they are low paid. This issues has to be tackled by confronting American companies that hire them, thats just my humble opinion as the Capitalist systems and the businesses that run within them don't care for the nation they care for profit and if its cheaper to hire foreign labour then native labour this what needs to be tackled.

davidk14: .


Immigration in general is screwed up here folks. Generations have grown up here from illegal immigrants and nobody really knows what to do that would be fair to those already here and those that have legally waited in line.

What absolutely has to happen first is to get control of the border, especially the southern border. Stop the flow of illegal immigrants.

Second, if businesses need foreign labor, then they need foreign labor. However, the government needs to get up-to-date with computer technology and also up the number of work visas that are needed. These work visas need to be easily accessible and the employer must be held accountable.

Simple as that.

Back to the folks that are illegal that have lived in the US for decades but are still considered illegal. There are many different plans out there from ship them all back to their home country (which some of them have never ever been to or even speak the language) to just give them citizenship. There is no easy answer to this issue.

And what doesn't help the problem are politicians that want to protect these illegals for voting their way or politicians afraid to honestly deal with the problem which would hurt the voter turnout of the illegal population since in many states, you do not have to prove you are a US Citizen to vote,.

However, what absolutely has to happen first is to get control of the border, especially the southern border. Stop the flow of illegal immigrants.

.

DummiesRuu: You do have to prove US citizenship proof in order to vote......why make that ridiculous statement?

pat08: Just because your government tells you it is coming to the "aid" of the "masses" certainly does not make it true. Judging by the responses your getting for your ridiculous comment I can only hope that the reality of the matter is coming all too clear to you know!

davidk14: To: DummiesRun,

When you register to vote, you only need to verify that you LIVE in the US. You do not supply a birth certificate. A utility bill will do.

Oh, and when you come back, again, can you use the name:

Iamparanoidandapathologicalliar

Thanks.


.

Kaiya_: this might interest some of you: About 6 months ago I responded to every topic related to this on wireclub. About 2 weeks ago I began getting notices of activity on all these from the "occupy wallstreet" subject to "End the Fed" subject in large volumes.

Bumpa: I've just seen footage on tv of a california cop walking along a line of kneeling protesters, pepper spraying into their faces. If that isn't a sign of a police state, what the hell is?
Thankfully I don't live in USA!

davidk14: .

Perhaps if they were shot in the head, then that would be a police state.

.

Bumpa: Hmmmmm, David you actually excuse this kind of behaviour from the cops? Perhaps shooting them might occur in some 3rd world countries but just because this is the lesser of 2 evils doesn't make it acceptable. America: Land of the free? Yeah right!

davidk14: .

Bumpa.

They did not respond to a lawful order from the police. They were given opportunities to make a choice. They chose. Don't make the cops out to be the bad guys. Those cops were suspended until further investigation. Once the investigation is over, the officer(s) involved will be found not guilty since they were following established policies and procedures to the letter of the law.

Now, will the law be changed so that anarchists can do whatever they please so that any law they want to break will be permitted? Perhaps.

.

Bumpa: OK David, the cops are allowed to give "lawful orders" and use violence when these orders are not obeyed, therefore USA is a police state. Any country where cops are given these powers is a police state. I have seen many examples of questionable police practices around the world but this is the most callous and arrogant one yet

Comrade_: Before you comment further DavidK, I suggest you read what actually happened so as to not embarrass yourself further.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15809742

I don't agree that what was done by these campus police should reflect that ALL the police in the US are bad but it's pure stupidity and arrogance to try to downplay the event or even try to justify it by comparing what happen in other countries.

davidk14: .

Using the BBC is not exactly the news agency for accurate information especially since they are known for their left leaning positions.

From the Associated Press

Decisions on using pepper spray range by department and depends largely on the community and the police chief, Klinger said.

Klinger said the officers could have turned to other methods, such as a so-called pain compliance hold, but that would bring its own set of complications. A protester could receive a broken arm, he said, or an officer could pull a muscle.

Charles J. Key, a former lieutenant with the Baltimore Police Department who wrote the department's use-of-force manual, said that officers were clearly within their rights to use it.

After reviewing the footage, Key said he observed at least two cases of protesters actively resisting police. In one, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques, he said.

"What I'm looking at is fairly standard police procedure," Key said.

.

Comrade_: And you would prefer a news agency that supports your views?

Nothing stated in the BBC article was based on opinion or showed any biasness.

Speaking of biasness, take a look at what you did, DavidK. Taking out pieces of the article to support your view instead of showing the link to the entire article.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/11/19/national/a181039S04.DTL

You neatly forgot to add:

"Decisions on using pepper spray range by department and depends largely on the community and the police chief, Klinger said."

The use of pepper spray was unwarranted, you can read the articles of any news agency of your choice.


If it was fair police procedure then the officers would've never been questioned or suspended. Some how I'm not surprised that you'd seek to downplay the situation though it is very clear that the protestors were doing things peacefully (I'm not supporting/demeaning their protest, I'm neutral towards it) but the force that was used is questionable.

davidk14: .

There are numerous articles on the incident. I'm pointing out that the police are controlled by policies and procedures and probably the most regulated profession.. These officers were not hiding out in a dark alley beating the crap out of these protesters. They knew they were being photographed in daylight in front of many people. What I also did not cut and paste was that the pepper agent was mid-range. It was not mace or another dangerous chemical. It was pepper. Two of the protesters went to the hospital and later released. No beatings, no stomping, no cuts or broken bones. No closed fists were used by the police.

You said, "If it was fair police procedure then the officers would've never been questioned or suspended." If it were police brutality, they would have been arrested....on the spot. Officers when a situation like this, or a situation where a police firearm is discharged in the line of duty, the officer is placed on admin leave "until a further review" is completed. The police are highly regulated. Do you also have a problem when they cleared the tent city out in Manhattan and that excessive force was used there as well?

Where I'm going with this is, if you do not obey a lawful order by the police, then you are allowing yourself to be placed in an uncomfortable situation. If an officer tells you to exit your car and you do not, you have made a choice not to follow a lawful command....and the officer will forcibly remove you. Now is that police brutality? Is that a police state?

.

Comrade_: I'm also pointing out that if the officers were following policies and procedures then their actions will not be question and neither will they be suspended. We are discussing this matter and nothing else.

I see, perhaps it is appropriate in the USA for officers to dose sitting protesters with pepper spray, but it is not common here. Like I said before I'm neutral towards the protesters but I do have my disagreements with the method of force the officers used (as would anyone else).

Bumpa: Yes David, that is a police state! When police are given legal power to order citizens to do something they do not wish to, it is a police state!
I have serious concerns when cops are given guns to carry also. Most cops I know are not mature or responsible enough to carry firearms. Thankfully they aren't issued with them here. Very evident on US cops belts though, and yet nowhere to be seen on Chinese cops and that is supposedly a police state??

davidk14: What country you from Bumpa?

davidk14: .

Bumpa:

My daughter is married to a police officer. The criminals here are armed. They shoot cops. Mike just went to the funeral of a fellow officer who was gunned down. Maybe your criminals are wimps, but the criminals here are really, really bad. Thankfully, he has never had to discharge his weapon in 8 years as a cop.

The following is just one situation what our police have to deal with….




.

Bumpa: I am from New Zealand and I am not surprised the US crims carry guns, they would need them for protection from police.
OK, so that's a bit facetious but you get the idea?
One of my main objections to police powers in America is the right to take life to protect property. Here shooting by armed officers is only allowed to protect life. A cash register can never be more valuable than a human life.

sebtheanimal:
makes me sick...and to know there are so many of these drones

sebtheanimal: david are you willing to let The State take ALL your rights away, for your protection. Because it happened and we are cattle.