Is the United States a Police State? (Page 8)

FogofWar: Caveman said: "Yet you come and justify it, and call me anti-American because like others I can see the error in using 2 Nuclear bombs on civilians."

The irony is that ALL the others on wireclub who have posted in response to these bombs agrees with me; and disagrees with you caveman. Is this another one of your "facts"???

Caveman said: "I never once justified any army's wrong doing."

Caveman said: "The only army I will respect is the Soviets and their contribution to WW2."[1]

Caveman said: "But maybe you'll see one day that, the Political leaders were not stupid, they knew what they were doing and there was no use for those bombs."

Are you implying that the Japanese never surrendered in WWII? :-0

No one is arguing that they knew what they were doing. We are merely pointing out to you the FACT that they had no other realistic alternative.


Caveman: "If you want to call me Anti-American over that, then so be it call me anti-american or anti-whatever."

Caveman: "And I will always regard the US as cowards for that, not because it was done in the past, but because of the present and how they make excuses."[2]


No, that's why I call you anti-American. "And I will ALWAYS regard THE US as cowards for that, not because it WAS done in the PAST, but because of the PRESENT and how THEY make excuses."

Caveman: "I think for myself.

Caveman said: "The only army I will respect is the Soviets and their contribution to WW2."[1]

Clearly…no one else would be this dumb.


Caveman: "The USSR did not join the allies until during the time of the bombings, Japan was still hoping to have the USSR's support."

The USSR made it clear they would not side with Japan in the beginning of 1945. In February; the USSR signed a friendship pact with China; Japan's major enemy. Clearly you would have to be retarded to assume the USSR would support Japan.


Caveman: "A well defeated dead army of Japan that supported their Emperor and believed in honour."

Where is your source for this? Please explain the battle of Iwo Jima; the battle of Okinawa; the continued resistance of the Tokyo fire bombings; and the I400 class submarines off the coast of North America then. Ignore reality all you want caveman…it doesn't make you any less wrong. Japan was far from defeated.

Caveman: "You should read up more on the war and the timelines and you'd understand perhaps my disagreement to join you in praising the 2 nuclear bombs as necessary and right."

Perhaps you would like to borrow my 25 volume edition of the Encyclopedia of WWII; or the 30 some odd other texts I have in regards to the history of WWII in my own personal library? You can read up on the I400 class submarine; and the continued resistance of Japan after 1946; despite being surrendered for over a year.

David: "What Caveman fails to realize, Japan in the 1940’s was not a country controlled by ‘politicians’ but by the ‘Japanese military complex’ almost exclusively, a real police state. The militaries matra was of Bushido or the ‘the way of the warrior’"

As stated in the previous debate on the nuclear bombings; Japan was controlled by the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War; which was a modernized version of the Supreme War Council. This is who controlled the nation; and yes; this is the very definition of a police state.

FogofWar: While you bring up Bushido; perhaps Caveman; you would also like to borrow a few texts I have on that as well; as written from the Samurai who wrote the doctrines on the very subject? I have in my collection several classic Bushido texts; and have been well versed in them. I know very well what the philosophy of the Japanese was. And before you go off on a tangent about how the Samurai was long gone by WWII; do remember that Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto was the son of one of the last samurai. He was trained as one from a young age; even though he would not hold the title due to political reasons. Yamamoto was not alone; several sons of samurai who were fully trained as such would go on to serve in WWII; among them were Tetsuzo Iwamato; the highest ranking Japanese pilot; and his main rival Hiroyoshi Nishizawa. Saburo Sakai was another notable modern 'samurai' turned pilot; that despite being shot in the eye with a .50 calibre round (big enough to hold explosives in the tip); he still managed to complete his mission; land; receive medical attention; and continue the resistance to the USA.

David: "As the war turned, the spirit of bushido was invoked to urge that all depended on the firm and united soul of the nation."

This code of Bushido would also be used to convince soldiers to become Kamikaze pilots. In fact; not only was their desire to obtain victory at all costs so high that they would kill themselves to kill the enemy; but the very essence of the Kamikaze is rooted in samurai tradition.

The word Kamikaze means "divine wind". The word dates back to the Mongol invasion; in which wind storms crushed the Mongol fleet at sea. This 'divine wind' was the protector of Japan; the will of the gods that would not allow anyone to conquer the islands of Japan.

They chose the name Kamikaze for these pilots for a reason. It was not because they were willing to accept defeat.


David: "Surrender to the Japanese military, because of their devotion to ‘Bushido’was worse than anything thinkable. The Japanese were absolutely ‘brutal’ to their captives due to the fact that they had zero respect for soldiers that surrendered. The Bataan Death March was just one of the many massacres that the Japanese military imposed on captives because of the zero respect that they for those who surrendered."

Surrender was not an option. It wasn't a word to the Japanese. The code of Bushido meant you fought until death. If you were defeated; and not killed; then you would commit seppuku (ritual suicide) to prevent bringing further shame to your father by continuing to live in defeat.

To surrender under the code of Bushido would mean the nation of Japan would have to kill themselves off…unacceptable.



David: "Once the President of the United States read these journals (which you can find online and which I have posted before on other threads)"

Can you post a link to them again. I would like to have a read through these to compare to the ones in which I have seen in the past.


[1] http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=772986&ParentId=1287299&Page=12

[2] http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=772986&ParentId=1287299&Page=11

davidk14: .

Reports of General MacArthur
Vol 2, Part 1


www.
history.army.mil/
books/wwii/MacArthur%20Reports/
MacArthur%20V2%20P1/macarthurv2.htm

I believe there are three volumes. Operation Olympic was the invasion plans. There are also numerous sites you can go to.

.

the real slim DEEPy: look, if 2 nuclear bombs were not enough for japan to declare an UNCONDITIONAL surrendur, then they were HARDLY on the verge of surrenduring. its not that the world demanded too much of japan, its that japan wasnt ready to give up shit even after the 2 bombs. if muking an entire city is the most horrible war atricity, and if they were "ready" to give up, anyway, then why didnt they avter tyhe first OR second.
and if we wanted so much, then why didnt we drop a 3rd bomb, or a fourth??? why did we give them a 6 year cease fire, while they still refused to surrendur sovregnty. is this NOT enout proof to you that if we had invaded japan, an entire hisroshima would have slowly died from gunshot wounds and grenades every 100 miles of coastline before we could EVEN step foot on that shore... do the math, i do believe thats near every citizen.

the real slim DEEPy: cant you admit that the atrocious atamic bomb is far more humaine than fireamms and explosives. indeed, many "survivors" dies slowly or shffered terrible borns and such, but the majority of victims were vaporized without percieving an instant of it.

and you would perfer thousands of miles of women and children bleeding to deach over many hours, moaning, crying, mothers and daughters slowly dying arm in arm. covering every grain of sand and surf of the naturally beautiful japanese coastline, aqnd encercling the ENTIREA island. hnow WHO is evil???

the real slim DEEPy: i would never vote for war, but its not my place to deny my fellow citizens their self-determination. the only better alternative would have been to do as france, andf i caqnnot demand of others to lie down their weapons and embrace invasion. dont start shit unless you finish shit. since i cannot help thee fact that we were in the war, then i cannot help that we had to END the war best we could. indeed 2 bonbs is better than a bomb for each city

the real slim DEEPy: let me be clear, i am mot making the bombs right. i dont think killing is ever right, the closest thing i would accept would be capital punishment for murder. i dont think the war was right.

im just saying that the bombs were the better of 2 evils.

the real slim DEEPy: and once again, let me state that in every war of all of history that every country has ever been involved, even your country, the targeting of civillians has bee a part of all and committed by ALL. do you reccomend that each thread user thruopu8ghty dsocument and post how many civillians his ancestors have killed. i think my country of poland has never declared war, and never been an invader, thus never killed civilians in any military compaign. how many civillians has germany, russia, italy, france, spain, elgland, china. fwx it, kill be damned if ANYONE else in this room can honestly state that his government has never killed innocent civillians.

the real slim DEEPy: all is fair in love andf war? ever heared that? the concepot of the "war crime" or "crime against humanity" was actually developed by toe us over remorse in the japanese bombings, and introduiced on the geneva convention. until then, it was universally accepted that there ware no rules in war... you cant hold someone responsible for a crime if it were not a crime at the time. but no, you are going to apply over the united states an ex facto law which we wrote ourselves, cause yalls asses STILL thought hiroshima was cool, and would have continued thinkiung as such, until we insisted that it, that WE were wrong. the treaty of versaii, as well as the 6 years cease fire and the eventual allowwances for japans emperer be protected were all efforts to make up for our regrettable actions- WE FELT GUILTY. is the proper resoopnse to guilt, to an attempt to make ammends, is the proper reaction to hold the admission of guilt over our heads for 70 years, and torment us about it. yes, war is wrong, but you CANNOt expect others to not defend themselves against war. its what you call a NECESARRY EVIL, and we chiose the LESSER. the only other option would have been to never enter the way, aand how many of yalls countries did such???

the real slim DEEPy: if you want to talk about right and wrong, what about incessantly tormanting and harassing and inviting the entire world to join in wehth you as a reaction to guilt. whatr is the right thing to do when someone tries to make ammends and truly shows guilt?

well you could kick them while they are down and bleeding for 70 years, but is this a NECESARRY EVIL, is ANY EVIL necessitated towards guilt? yeah thats kool lets ghater up half the world and gank kich the bxz&x while hes down and crying. its DAMN FUNNY watching someone cry while bleeding from the eyes. year, real necesarry, real noble, real "good" of you.

you know, i sort of remember a forman apology, and the response i remember from japan was forgiveness. if they can get over their "hatred"m then whats your issue?

Drain_Bammage: Flood forums much deep?

Comrade_: Do you know that it is debated whether those 2 nuclear bombs were the cause of ending the war, Deep?

I'm not going to repeat my argument. The other cities were also attacked but not with Nuclear bombs. These 2 different types of Nuclear bombs were specifically sent on those people and reserved those two cities as a test.
Don't down play what was done, it was 2 nuclear bombs not fire bombs or anything else, not guns. If you felt guilty then why make up excuses? Why not just accept that it was a wrong and move on?
And before you jump into a discussion I suggest you get some back ground information on how it started at least to not make yourself a fool.
http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=772986&ParentId=1287299&Page=9

"In Hiroshima (I'm not saying that nuclear war will happen) but look at what happened in Hiroshima, no common sense was used. This is what happens in wars, no reasoning. "
And in FogofWars usual way, he brings his butt-hurt into other threads to just flood it.

I brought out that Nuclear warfare is still a reality and that you can't depend on the 'niceness' or 'reasoning' of an enemy, as was seen in Hiroshima, 2 NUCLEAR bombs were used one after the other and could've been avoided. Sparking an arms race. Sorry but I'm not going to join in making excuses or praise the use of Nuclear weapons on civilians. Whether it was the US or not, esp. since the reasoning sounds more as to scare the Japanese to surrender by killing civilians and NOT a combat against the military. You can't expect me to come and agree that it was the right & best choice and expect me a modern man to continue to agree with that decision, given all the evidence that we now have today on what really happened. I stand by my words, and if you think it is still Anti-American then go right ahead but I'm sure you all can find an excuse for Agent Orange and the others too.

the real slim DEEPy: the exfcues is that it was not thoughtto be wrong at the time, the w=hole reason that it is now is becuause we made it wrong

the real slim DEEPy: to whom much is given, much is expected. at the time, we felt like it was our best option, but only as a necesarry evil. today, we would rather follow the knowledge attained, that all is NOT FAIR in war. one should try their damndest at avoiding civilian casulties, for not every citizen bears the responsibility for their opressive leader's actions.

the real slim DEEPy: you do realize that this thread is full of hate for my present homeland, but this is not the land of my family. yet, i am tormented for living in the great satan., yes, we are quote shitty, but who isnt. I KNOW MY POLAND IS pure and noble.

BUT AMERICA is TERRIBLY IGNORANT AND SELFISH. still, as a citien, it is not pleasant to be held accountable for the past, for the actions of those before you. there is no righteoius, not one. he who is without sin, cast the first stone. this rehashing of less civil times constantly, the rehashing of the past in ritualistic torment is fueling anti-americainism in the muslim world, whic will do nothing but increase the cycle of terrorit activities aimed at all of euroamerica.

by fueling the hatred, you are enabling those who wish to lure us noto the very wars you protest. you are merely fueling the fire for the cycles of violence, incidental to your sociopathic attempts to break the reactionary methods of the great satan.

the real slim DEEPy: hate fuels hate, the only way to stop hate, is to stop being hateful. fighting hate with hate is exponentially cyclical. the end of hate is love, the enrtopy for hate is civility. you are being self defeating. hate fixes hate no more than 2 wrongs make right.

Comrade_: This thread is full of hate? I didn't see it. I pointed nothing that is anti-American. You seem not to be able to tell the difference between the action of the government and the action of the people, but I can. Be slow to think people hate America when they point out the ills done, just as any other country. The stupidity lies when people don't accept that a wrong was done and instead brush it off as "anti-American".

It is good to sit and look back at the wrong another Government has/is doing but it becomes sensitive when that Government is the US and it turns 'hate' when it is a US Government. Deep, I speak the same about all Governments you've never seen me once say anything about the American people, I call cowards to the ones who sit and justify the use of those 2 Nuclear Bombs, those that carry HATE for Japan still and think that the people there deserved it. Why don't you talk about that?
When you have people who are ignorant and hateful of other countries and deem theirs as superior, it doesn't matter where that person is located/the race of that person, it goes the same both ways. If a man can come and think he deserve my praise & honour because he as a man fought in a war, why should I give it to him when I don't know him as a person and if he deserve praise. I only honour one man in my lifetime and he won that without any medals.
If you don't like it then it's your choice to dislike but that is how I feel. If you think I carried hate because I don't try to justify the use of Nuclear bombs on civilians then that's your right too.

the real slim DEEPy: look, the whole world was wwII, not just america and japan. why didnt the world warn us then that it was a bad idea like they so fvervently are sure to do so now... we were one country in a hemispherical alliance, and were very open to opinion on their use, but recieved harddly none. and we, whatever.

it was an atrocity, duh... but to beat a dead horse for 70 years when a word of warning then would have been more beneficial.

look, america has plenty of problems, but it already has suficcient worldwide hatred. if you dont let the horse die, you are doing noting but enabling a new generation of terrorrists, which will keep america stuck in its "shock-and-awe" OVERKILL WHICH WE CULTURALLY APPLY TO EVERYTHING.

UNDERSTAND, you dont need to fuel hatred or fruiticism of america, it is obvious and plenty succifient, as it stands. you are obsessing with this issue, and seemed to be blinded by the fact that no nation is innocent. its just not cool. criticisms are fine, opinions are accepted, but obsessive, emotianally fueled methods are the tools of turning the court of public opinion. this isnt about anything but spreading national hate. hiroshima was f~@w%y up, but so is fueling a new generation of terrorists. if you wand ius to attone, if japans forgiveness as moot, then just fookin do something, stop trying to mass manipulate with emotionally charged rhetoric. you have much have to say, but what are you ready to do?

the real slim DEEPy: this country has earned itself PLENTY of enimies with our ignorantly self-defeating methods in foreign engagement. your point is known, clear and widespread, and admittedly true, but the cycle of war will not end until the hate fueling ends. im sorry, but this country is too "cowboy" to be nonreactionary to violent attacks. as it is not possible to hold all citizens accountable for the actions of their government (the reasoning of our evil use ot the bombs), then stop fueling hatred to the nth degree, for those who hate us have no qualms in attacking cilillians, thus, you are fueling others to kill our citizens, the exact opposite of your proclaimed goal of detesting human casualties of war. look, we are due a nuking ourselvez eventually, and id rather it not be today. there is plenty of desire to destroy us, so your argument is less than informative, and more infuriating.

the real slim DEEPy: if u think horoshima was wrong, then, seriously drop it. you do realize that there is a serious effort underway to nuke us in the near future from a very unstable enemy state. if your hatr spreading fuels fupport for this enemy, then it will be YOU that is responsible for the nuking of my city. do you really gove a damn about american citizens? i maan why would you? so fine, do as we do, and be a monster too, that will prove your point.

meh, seriousluy, shup. apparrently you have no clue that we hlaready have it coming, all your doing is making it more likely hit my city. id hardly appreciate that.

Comrade_: I am obsessing over the issue? I state my beliefs on the issue, I didn't raise this issue, if you don't know what happened then I suggest you read who brought up this issue for yourself.

I forced you to make a comment? If you don't like what I have to say then kindly don't comment, seeing you don't even know how the issue was raised & why. You just jumped in with the gang without seeing who started the discussion on Hiroshima and pushed it to be "debated". I have my views on it and I'll not keep quiet when questioned on it, if you don't like it then I suggest you quietly piss off.
Gracias.

Comrade_: You seem content in pulling some imagined 'hatred' towards yourself and making yourself seem as some innocent victim. Typical. I fuel no hate, I state as I see doesn't matter what country you belong too. I had my reasons for stating Hiroshima as an example in the other thread (which you didn't read) and the point of it wasn't to debate that issue, but IF you read it you'd see who was pushing for it to be debated, even though the evidence is already there.
Next time you feel to join in some crusade carried on by members who like spreading things by copy & pasting statements out of context, I suggest you look into the background of the issue and where it was raised.
I never once claimed anything hateful towards another country, I state as I see with the facts that I see. The issue was pushed to be debated and I give my reasons.

You think the world hates you? Stupid, maybe you should instead learn to take a bit of criticism before feeling as a 'victim'. Every Government's action is under scrutiny, there is no hate when something doesn't match up and you point it out. Stop being so sensitive.

the real slim DEEPy: no, you dont seem much hateful, but you are spreading hate, i am sorryto focus on you, you are one of many, many others moch worse.

this is my point, if you rehsh the past, you relive it. the us and japan have a very good relationship, and have had wo for the 30 years i remember. they were a formidable, honorable opponent, and have well earned our respect and empathy, and we definitely feel like shit for our inwardly focused early 20th century ways back then. when you feel like shit about it already, you dont need to be convinced with what torments you, you wish it to be said, ackoaledged, and done. beating the dead horse breeds malevolence in observers, whether it is meant or not, and intrinsically rehashes past atrocities onto a generation who bears not the price of the crime, but still suffers emotionally from being that culture, and now is increasingly being exposed of being destroyed over ir. there is too much hate, and it is on the verge of undoing all of us in short order if we do not now end the past and learn to do better today.

the real slim DEEPy: the us has a terible disposition, an the world seems to intentionally push our buttons. it is not right to be so obsessed with "ahock and awe" psycologically terrorizing overeactionary and over-kill techniques.

i could go pn for hours about all the guild i share for living on soil bought with opression. but pushing the nuclear issue was just too far. from the outwards looking in, i would think america evil as well, but toe focus on america, and the denial of other subvertive imperialistms.

i see most civilizations pretty equally evil to my own, and see no objectiity in singling us out, when we most all smells like shit.

the world is due to self destruct if we do not quickly get over all the blame and games and keneivery, so, best just to drop it, for the next war will be THE WAR OF WARS, and we need not invite it.

"i know not what weapons WWIII will be fought with, but wwIV will be fought with sticks and stones.

the real slim DEEPy: as far as policing, i wish we were not in iraq and afghanistan, but i feel that most others are perferring is to maintain our bases, and why we dont lessen concentrations, i have no idea. i assume that most perfer our presence for thrir security, and i find it very hard to understand how civil things in itaq have finally become. we need to drop the righteous protector of freedom additude, for foreign involvement is rarely free of terrible implications.

f this, i could go on for years about how we suck, and how we have earned our eventual destruchton, but im not inviting it either...

im just quite paranoid that wwIII id growing closer every day we carry on as a species of destruction and secrecy.