Palestinians in efforts to be recognized as a state.
IsraeliOr: And exactly who will rule the so called "state"? Is it the palestinian authority in the west bank, or is it Hamas in the Gaza strip, which will be a part of this "state"?
This is the time to remind the world that Hamas goal is to destroy Israel and build a palestinian state on all the territory.
so who are you giving a country? and who assures you that Hamas won't take over the west bank as he conquered gaza?
And as for the pro-Israeli Obama speech, palestinians shouldnt be so shocked. they had it coming in their attempt to embarras USA in the UN.
shadowline: How willing is the PA to take on the responsibilities of statehood? Will they reign in their own militants? Will they take responsibility if they fail to do so?
And while we're at it, will UNRWA be disbanded, and will the flow of U.N. money stop?
And of course you can bet that the central plank in the whole thing is the same one that has always been indispensible to the PA: that they must have the "right" to remain completely economically dependent on Israel.
chronology: Probable most likely outcome of the Statehood move will be Palestinian Territory will become an 'Observer' at the U.N. Washington has no power to Veto this. The Vatican State is an Observer Territory. Washington's main objection to the Statehood move seems to be there is no way of enforcing a Statehood decision if it was granted. What Washington seemed to see was more problems, not problems being solved.
How willing is the PA to take on the responsibilities of statehood?
Oh, the PA will take it real serious all right. Hamas will also take it serious. They have got to sell that they decided not to negotiate peace but instead they went to the UN to get statehood and…and….and…
….did not get statehood, yet, they will sell to the Palestinian people that they did get statehood…but…um…there are no boundaries to their state.
But they will sell to them that they got everything that they wanted and…but…no…Jerusalem will not be their capital…but they will try and sell that it is….and that the settlements will…um…no…they didn’t get them removed…but they said they did…and they also got right of return….um…sorry…no they didn’t…but they will say to their people they did.
And that since they got their UN vote of paper-lion statehood there is no longer the need to negotiate with Israel. And they have to sell that for sure. Now that is true. All past treaties, understandings, innuendoes, back room deals, all of it….is gone…because they went to the UN and got what? Nada…zip….nothing. They were playing the poker player bluff and went all in…and came up with deuces.
Shadowline said: Will they reign in their own militants? Will they take responsibility if they fail to do so?
David responds: No and no. They never have and never will especially since Hamas is part of the NEW! and IMPROVED! Palestinian Authority.
Shadowline said: And while we're at it, will UNRWA be disbanded, and will the flow of U.N. money stop?
David responds: Probably not.
Shadowline said: And of course you can bet that the central plank in the whole thing is the same one that has always been indispensible to the PA: that they must have the "right" to remain completely economically dependent on Israel.
Now that will be interesting to see. Now technically, since the PA went to the UN and threw all negotiations, agreements, understandings right out the window, technically, Israel can close all border crossings because…they can. Israel will no longer be responsible for anything happening in the West Bank or Gaza and if they the Israeli’s do not want to ‘trade’, they don’t have to. Why should they?
The West Bank could be completely cut off but then the other Arab states will come to the Palestinian aid. Right? Well, they haven’t so far except for Iran and Syria, a little from Jordan and real little from Egypt…but then, who’s counting.
Technically…If Hamas continues its attacks on Israel; Israel may legally be able to consider the aggression….An Act Of War where a declaration of war can be legally drafted.
Why do you think Obama and Clinton are begging…BEGGING…Abbas not to go around the concept of negotiations?
If Israel is attacked…seriously attacked...the US will completely support Israel…completely destroying any credibility Obama had with the Muslim world which would also blow Obama and his administration right out of the White House and there is nothing more important to Obama than to continue to be president.
Does anyone really think that Obama would BEG Abbas to not go to the UN if it was completely detrimental to a peaceful solution?
shadowline: Now that I think of it, it's "rein" in your militants, isn't it? Not "reign" them in. One means pull on the reins, the other means reign over. I really should get my native language right.
Nail Lizardman: 1 of all the palastinians have rights too...2 i agree ,they must stop bombing,and 3 Many of them are CHRISTIANS.....
dvustimmer: Dave, you know I respect your insight. In this instance also, there is a lot of good logic in what you state. Is there any real resolution where Israel, Palestine, and yea, Syria, Egypt.... can exist peacefully, or at least to the extent it's not the hot box it is. I personally can not see this ever happening
Dave, you know I respect your insight. In this instance also, there is a lot of good logic in what you state. Is there any real resolution where Israel, Palestine, and yea, Syria, Egypt.... can exist peacefully or at least to the extent it's not the hot box it is. I personally can not see this ever happening.
This is my second attempt to answer your question. The first time I got caught up with the day to day stuff, the UN and what happened today and what was said and then when I re-read your question, my comments were all over the place.
So I guess the answer should be short and sweet.
Yes, there can be a resolution. Here it is:
On the same day, at the same hour, minute and second:
• Israel ceases construction of settlements and for Netanyahu to once again commit as he did today at the UN, "I extend my hand to the Palestinian people, with whom we seek a just and lasting peace,"
• The Palestinian Authority and Hamas recognize Israel’s right to exist and that Hamas, as with all sides, completely renounce violence as the means to the solution.
The next second, a date set for negotiations without any pre-conditions.
The other side of the coin….
It’s easy for Israel to stop construction. It’s not easy for Hamas to recognize Israel’s right to exist.
dvustimmer: Dave, yea, I was like you can't believe in a million years Hamas is ever going legit the existance of Israel. Basically it all comes down to that. I don't know how this is accomplsihed without alot of blood, but the real step toward peace to me is the total elimination of Hamas. Do alot of people die in making that happen, realistical no doubt. And on and on about strike against Hamas turns off all the other countries and we are back to the Arab world only has death to Israel as priority one.
I'm not sure that qualifies as a solution, I mean, another solution is Israel desides it will cease being a country and the Jews will all leave the land. As insane as that may sound, that would also be a peaceful solution, and probably would be more likely to happen than Hamas recognizing Israels right to existance.
Here's an idea...Egypt could donate the entire Sinai to the Palestinians. No one to kick off the land since there is really no one living there. Plenty of land to grow on and access to the Red Sea. Moving day would be easy and certainly much cheaper.
Sarcastic Dots: "If they want to be a true country then they shouldn't be represented by former terrorists"
Just like Ireland, South Africa and the United States, right?
Am I right?
Man, I hate those countries so much. I am glad the British viewed these hostile nations as terrorists and destroyed their legitimacy.
P.S. The above was sarcasm.
dvustimmer: SarcasticDot, no, I give you that on some levels and in history that is a legit point. And the Bristish did try to snuff out our legitimacy.
IsraeliOr: well, the problem is that unlike Mandela, Hania (the leader of Hamas) does not want to live in peace with us. He just want to destroy all of us.
Furthermore, Hamas has its own territory - Gaza strip in which we dont have our soldiers in.
I think thats enough to say that he IS a terrorist, and not just a nice peace wanting man.
Yan26: Do you think anything positive can come out of granting a Palestine state?
What I have noticed whenever I read a comment by an Arab Muslim is that they all ask for "their" land back. They all basically ask that Israel's creation be undone. It is as if they are still in 1949 and have not moved on.
Whereas most Israelis argue about what has to be done now. For them 1949 doesnt seem important.
Also by creating a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders wouldnt it be an indirect acknowledgement of Israel's existence. If Israel said that it would accept a Palestinian state if all parties (including Hamas) demanded it, would it force the Hamas to demand it and indirectly acknowledge Israel?
By creating a Palestinian homeland do you think it would give Palestinians closure of some form. Allow them to focus on building a nation(At present I think they have nothing to do other than hate Israelis).
At present I think the people who live in the refugee camps have an identity which has hating Israel as its core principle. Creating Palestine may give them a new identity not linked to Israel.
While it may not brng peace in the short term I think it would be beneficial maybe 20-30 years down the line.
Sarcastic Dots: "Ireland ISNT represented by former terrorists considering that the IRA only went to TERRORISM in the late 20th century"
You are missing my point entirely. It doesn't matter if they were terrorists or not, that is how they were defined by the stronger party. Using the word terrorist is a way to delegitimize independence movements. Yeah sure, the Palestinian government is arguably made up of terrorists, but it is debatable whether or not the Palestinian people feel that way.
That's not to say that the formation of a country should be built upon the premise of attacking another nation, but history has clearly shown that if a nations grievances are not met they will resort to violence. The attitude that a country should have to prove itself to the larger party BEFORE it gets anything is so asinine. Concessions need to be made, then people should see if they prove themselves with the power they have been given... If, IF Israel is still attacked by Palestinian terrorists after statehood is granted then I think you'll find that the international community would be far more hostile to them than they are now.
As it stands, the Palestinians have been given nothing, so they have nothing to lose. Give them something to lose.
(Edited by Sarcastic Dots)
IsraeliOr: Yan, Its not only about recognizing their state. Even the palestinian authority demands, as well as the 67' state, that all refugies "return" to Israel. Furthermore, he doesn't even recognize Israel as a jewish state. Means they want a 2 state solution: one arab state - palestine, and another two nation state - Israel.
I find it unjust.
In order to make peace, both parties have to give something up. for us it may be 67' lines with specific security arrangement. but for them it has to be recognizing the jewish state, and giving up the way of terror, violence and all accusations againts Israel.