A Preacher and Gay-Rights (Page 5)
davesdatahut: The focus Tuesday was on the presidential race, but one of the astounding things that came out of the day was the approval of gay marriage initiatives in three states. The people in those states can stand up and be proud that they upheld the values of the Constitution and rejected the self-annointed god lovers who opposed the proposals and thereby mocked everything that religion is supposed to stand for. Praise to them.
davesdatahut: From a New York Time article on Nov. 10 about how American voters rejected the conservative Christian message, there was this quote:
<<"Millions of American evangelicals are absolutely shocked by not just the presidential election, but by the entire avalanche of results that came in," R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Ky., said in an interview. "It's not that our message - we think abortion is wrong, we think same-sex marriage is wrong - didn't get out. It did get out.
"It's that the entire moral landscape has changed," he said. "An increasingly secularized America understands our positions, and has rejected them.">>
He is absolutely correct that the moral landscape has changed - FOR THE BETTER. There IS hope for America.
See the full story here:
Zanjan: Dave: Bless those who don't accuse others of being bigots because they have a mind of their own.
"the moral landscape has changed - FOR THE BETTER"
davesdatahut: The shoe, in this case, fits.
For the better for anyone who cherishes the United States Constitution.
Zanjan: The constitution also works well for criminals, who use it to obstruct justice.........same in Canada.
davesdatahut: And off she goes on the usual tangents that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.
Zanjan: The issue is how one's behaviour affects society, the vulnerable and children. When people care only about their own rights, they fail to see how it affects the lives of others in the short and long term.
You cant build a nation with myopic vision, you can only contribute to its ultimate destruction.
davesdatahut: Damn them gays and them blacks and them women for selfishly caring about their rights! Bastards all of em!! Kill duh bums and leave me a world of straight white men. Ahhhhhh...so nice.
Ride_On: To have a completely unselfish society then people like yourself wouldnt be able to use your values and opinions by which you are currently judging people by to decode ones value in this world ....now would you?
Zanjan: "To have a completely unselfish society then people like yourself wouldn't be able to use your values and opinions........."
Nonsense. An unselfish society can see the importance of diversity; since it knows the purpose of diversity, it values that - obviously, you don't attack the thing you value.
An unselfish society is a just society; the mark of a just society is that it doesn't tolerate subversive behaviour and corruption since that destroys the pillars of civilization. An unselfish society is unified in its understanding of what's in the best interest of mankind - easy to see the big picture when turning the eyes away from one's own life and desires.
"...........which you are currently judging people by"
False. I don't judge people - souls, that is. I observe things and actions. If you steal (action), you're a thief (thing) - you establish a reputation for yourself you cant hide from others. Judging a soul, on the other hand, is about determining somebody's rank amongst men, and requires a lot more inside knowledge than an assessment of a single action. I leave that part to God. That knowledge has nothing to do with me.
I only pay attention to the need-to-know stuff. You can't have a safe, healthy life or be a good leader with a log in your eye, thumbs in your ears, and poor judgment of your own actions.
halfapintdoll: Ladies and gentlemen ... allow me to summarise everything so far, and perhaps we can move on.
Zanjan has a touch of homophobia, for what ever reason, whether that be for religious reasons or a general feeling of moral outrage, in this case I don't think it's going to wear off any time soon.
Those of us who want to live in a tolerant society must also tolerate others intolerances. What is deemed socially deviant depends on the society and it's a fluid concept, just because you find something morally reprehensible doesn't mean that in today's day and age it's still deemed deviant.
Religion has no place in politics, nor should it. Those of us in the developed western world live in multi cultural societies. Those (like zanjan) who assert their right to believe something have that right because we live in a multi cultural and tolerant society. To tie politics and religion together would be to force people to believe in specific things faith wise and behave in certain ways and is an infringement on basic human rights.
The rights the LGBT community are still lobbying for are the same rights that protect the opinions of homophobes and bigots.
However the right to free speech is important for everyone. Free speech is a catch 22 situation. It gives everyone the right to have a voice which is important, however it also allows those with beliefs we find less acceptable to have a voice. Personally I reserve the right to call homophobes and bigots uneducated idiots, stuck in the middle ages, with no comprehensive and infallible evidence to support their beliefs.
Continuing to argue with Zanjan is pointless, she will always be homophobic. Sometimes (only sometimes mind you) I hope i'm wrong about my belief that god is the creation of man, that there is no heaven and hell and that we're here and then we die. If I am wrong and when you die you face your creator (whomever this may be) how many would actually make the grade? How many would have pleased their creator with their words, actions and hearts? I can only really base my knowledge on the Christian faith, having been raised Catholic. From the 16 years I spent studying the bible (particularly the new testament), I can state with some authority that there will be a lot of ''good Christians'' sorely disappointed.
Currently people of faith are trying to use sociology to defend their beliefs. Such quotes as ''gay marriage will be the end of society'', ''gay marriage undermines the fabric of society'', ''gay marriage will damage the human population rates''. None of these statements are based in any discernible fact, they are the statements of scared people who dislike difference - nothing more nothing less.
Everyone should have the right to live how they choose. Relationships between consenting adults should not be regulated or prevented by legislation.
I have no need to continue commenting on here, my opinion of Zanjan is less than favourable and I believe it's people such as her that are damaging the fabric of society. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. I do have one last comment to leave you with ....
Glass houses and stones people!
davesdatahut: Well said on all points, halfpint.
Fortunately, we are seeing the old guard of homophobia and faith-based bigotry fade away as a younger, more tolerate segment of society takes hold. Over time, the old attitudes of rejection and exclusion will gradually fade. Or we can at least hope so.
The Zanjans of the world won't fully go away. Some number of them will continue their incantational caterwauling until the end of time, wrapping themselves in their delusional, self-endowed piety and the notion that they, and they alone, have the answers. But their power in society will fade. Just as racial bigotry has gradually receded, so too will society's tolerance of intolerance.
One of the great things about democracy is that we allow people to pursue whatever religions they want to pursue, without government interference, and say what they want to say, without government interference....as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of other law-abiding adults. We must defend the rights of people to advocate for unequal standards for others. We also must also defend society, even more strongly. against their views having the force of law.
It's a delicate balance.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
Zanjan: Halfapintdoll: "Zanjan has a touch of homophobia"
Here, you're judging others, which you have absolutely NO capacity to do. It's also a personal attack on somebody who doesn't hold the same values as you do. If you're gay, you wouldn't have the guts to do that live, in person. Having known a lot of gays in my time, I haven't found any of them to be fearless.
FYI, gays are nothing to be afraid of - one can turn down their inappropriate sexual advances easily; their gayness isn't communicable so no need to run from them. If one of them is a pedophile, then we'd protect our kids as we would from any other predator.
"Those of us who want to live in a tolerant society must also tolerate others intolerances"
You've eaten your own words there.
"just because you find something morally reprehensible doesn't mean that in today's day and age it's still deemed deviant."
You have the mistaken notion that only a couple people find deviant behaviour repulsive or annoying. Yet it's an essential part of diversity - without the presence of deviant behaviour, it would be very difficult to detect upright conduct.
"Religion has no place in politics, nor should it."
I agree with that. However, when you remove *moral principle* from politics, you get politics as it is today. When you remove those same moral principles from the law, you get lawlessness. Are you're hoping for the day that murder, theft, rape and child molestation is legal? Those are all forbidden by religious law - laws that haven't been imposed on civilians, but on religions' own followers.
"Those (like zanjan) who assert their right to believe something......"
That's not a right - it's an intrinsic function of the mind.
"the right to free speech is important for everyone"
You might have noticed that most people don't like or tolerate fanatics because they're loose cannons. Fanatics don't accept that they're mentally unstable. Having the right to freedom of speech doesn't come with approval to spread hatred. In my country, that's against the law.
" If I am wrong and when you die you face your creator (whomever this may be) how many would actually make the grade?"
That's none of your business. Even if you knew, the information would be totally useless to you.
" I can state with some authority"
No you cant. You have no idea what God thinks of them - I know God; I've worked with God all my life, and I can tell you straight out that you're no God.
''gay marriage will be the end of society'', ''gay marriage undermines the fabric of society'', ''gay marriage will damage the human population rates.....None of these statements are based in any discernible fact"
Maybe they say that because gay marriage has never happened until modern times; there's no discernable fact that gay marriage builds a healthy society.
You have your chance to prove them right now........go for it. But at least have the guts to put your gender on your marriage certificate so stats can track the results.
"Everyone should have the right to live how they choose"
LOL......... they always do, with or without legislation.
" my opinion of Zanjan is less than favourable "
You have this deranged notion that your opinion of me is actually worth something.
Ride_On: Lmao......"If you're gay, you wouldn't have the guts to do that live, in person. Having known a lot of gays in my time, I haven't found any of them to be fearless.If you're gay, you wouldn't have the guts to do that live, in person. Having known a lot of gays in my time, I haven't found any of them to be fearless."Zan haul your ass to Texas anyday sweetheart i can assure you for the first time in your life you would meet a LOT of "gays" who are fearless! Might want to bring some backup with you though .That statement alone made this now go from me wondering how some folks actually function in this world to me laughing and feeling sorry for one inparticular whos posting on this thread.And for that i bow out of this now ,,,and please dont take this step as being "fearless" lmaoooooooooooo DAMN!!!! TY though for now i shall go to work today smilingMakes me almost want to give you a hug....