California gives non-citizens ability to serve on juries (Page 4)

OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: If there are no rules in law, why stop at having non-citizens be jury members? Why not let them judge also. Or how about the people on the jury get to decide which country's laws they use? We could flip a coin and say US/English laws or Sharia.

I. Don't. Think. So.
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one_two_x_u
one_two_x_u: I did say based on logic, not based on chance (as in the case of flipping the coin) nor the coming of a new president. How on earth is changing laws because they are no longer relevant or have no use representative of some utopian fantasy? What!? What a depressing world you live in that something so basic to human rationale and logic must seem so unrealistic and fairytale-like to you.

How do you jump from allowing non citizens on a jury to them being a judge or deciding the laws. They are not being paid, it is not a job as it is for the judge. They are not politicians either, they don't decide any laws. They just sit, listen to a case, discuss it together as a group, make a group decision, announce whether they find the individual to be innocent of guilty.

What in that implies anything of what you're suggesting!?

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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: Logic based? Based on whose logic?
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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: You apparently know little about the US justice system. Jury verdicts, when upheld, determine case law, which can change and change our laws. Ever heard of Roe v Wade?

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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: how about Rosa Parks v. City of Montgomery?
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: I am of two minds on this. I hear the arguments about people being judged by actual citizens who have shown their dedication to being one of us. I wouldn't want someone with little knowledge of our system and less interest in it serving on a jury. On the other hand, new blood and new views is not necessarily a bad thing, especially given that so many 'citizens' view jury duty as a burden rather than an obligation. Perhaps if we stipulate that a non-citizen must be here legally for at least a few years, must show fluency in English, and a good understanding about how the jury system works, then maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all. Maybe it would even be a requirement for citizenship?
As an aside, the argument that someone who believes in the lunacy of Sharia law could end up on a jury is spurious because a lawyer can easily ask a potential juror questions about that and then boot them off the panel if they profess views in line with that particular brand of Dark Ages thinking.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: Dave, "new blood and new views" are rights of legal citizens, not illegal aliens or people in the US who are not US citizens.

Voire dire when empaneling a jury is not foolproof. I served a few months ago on a jury where a wacko female should have never been empaneled. The woman had a history which should have disqualified her for serving had she been truthful. She obviously asked the question and lied through her teeth.
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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: You earn citizenship, Dave. People should not be afforded the rights of citizens unless they are citizens.
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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: I went to the citizenship ceremony when my SIL got her citizenship. There were something like people from 18 different countries there. The majority were hispanic guys who earned their citizenship by serving in the military. Those guys EARNED it, without a doubt.

Sadly, many of the rest of them could not even understand English. I have no idea how they received their citizenship without the ability to speak or understand even basic English. Trying to mingle and talk to them after the ceremony was futile...and eye-opening. Even my SIL was amazed and asked how they could have possibly received citizenship.
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duncan124
duncan124:
Thats odd 'cos the military have always had a seperate ceremony since way back.

Just saying....are you sure it weren't somewhere like 'G' Bay???
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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: very funny, Duncan. I have no idea if the military has a separate ceremony or not, but the one I attended at the USCIS had men who had been in the military. They have to take an oath of allegiance before an officer of the USCIS or through a judicial agency.
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duncan124
duncan124:
...but it is seperate from the public..has been for years...but at the public one you can wear your klan sheets and pointed hat....just saying...
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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: You are being a complete ass, Duncan.
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duncan124
duncan124:
You can wear any clothing you like but it has to be suitable for a such a public occasion.

Your old Klaners got to chopping each other up over the wrong kind of sheets on one occasion I remember
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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: duncan, take the racist crap talk elsewhere.
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duncan124
duncan124:

..or you can wear nothing and join in with the other thousand or two naked oath takers.
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duncan124
duncan124:
But you can't be a military person....either private or public or any other sort!
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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: Again, that statement makes no sense whatsoever.
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duncan124
duncan124:
Its not ' racist ' OCD to chop somebody up because theywere wearing the wrong cloths.

The Police arrested the gangs after going to their house to tell themthat they had not sworn the oath because they had kept their heads covered ---with the pointy hats they wear!
(Edited by duncan124)
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: The voire dire process, like any other, is imperfect. No doubt, it does fail to exclude some people who have no business being on juries because they have axes to grind or they are just crazy. But your case in point certainly raises an interesting counterpoint. If it failed to exclude a citizen who was nuts, would it not be worth trying it on legal non-citizens, who are more likely to want to abide by the rules, out of fear that they could be kicked out of the country? In other words, I'm guessing a non-citizen would be less likely to lie during voire dire because their situation here is tenuous. No?
(btw, an excellent Frontline was on the other night about what happened to a Pakistani girl's family when she tried to press rape charges against four 'upstanding' men of the community. To say some places in Pakistan live in the Dark Ages would be like saying basketball players enjoy good sneakers.)
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OCD_OCD
OCD_OCD: You know exactly what I mean. You said people attend citizenship ceremonies in KKK sheets and pointed hats.
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duncan124
duncan124:
..and went home and choped each other up! -But had to go back and swear with their faces open with a policeman next to them.
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Chad_
Chad_: duncan are you smoking crack what are you talking about.............
(Edited by Chad_)
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duncan124
duncan124:
...your not forgeting that arrested people still have to go to the ceremony??
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duncan124
duncan124:
Can't say I am Chad, eh I am talking about the topic...
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