Do guns protect you, or simply cause violence? (Page 8)

ghostgeek: Yes, poverty must be a factor. Of slaying victims in California, 42 percent were Latino, 31 percent were black and 21 percent were white. It's most likely that the first two groups were the poorest.

SoulVIBE: "Typically (at least, how it appears from the outside) the same US citizens opposed to any form of gun control are the same ones who oppose any form of sensible government policy that might alleviate poverty."

-that is quite an ASSumption, i must say...you are wrong of course but, hey nice try

" It's most likely that the first two groups were the poorest."

-another ASSumption, and you may be right but...its still a guess on your part (not fact or truth)

and another thing, you say 33 peoples lives were saved yet, "they had next to no need for guns" in Cali...i would say 33 lives is significant, id say ONE life saved is significant...but hey, i guess thats not a high enough number for you...but it means a lot to the families of those people...much more than your (directed) opinion of what America needs and doesnt need...again, you really have no clue what is going on in this country, you think some stats and some articles give you a clear view...and i assure you, a clear view of this country and how it really operates is something you wont ever know...same goes for many citizens that live here...but, feel free to keep making assumptions and thinking there is a simple solution to the problem, as if a few laws will make everything better...you hold on to that dream...take care, Peace and 1 Love to ALL

ghostgeek: If Americans valued life as much as you suggest SoulVibe, the automobile would be outlawed. The reality, of course, is that people make a trade between the lives lost due to accidents and the benefits of car ownership. The same thinking should apply to guns. Trade the few lives that may be saved by the use of a gun for self-defense against the many that would be saved if the country was free of the damned things.

Wild__: Wrong! The US media simply ignores all self defensive uses of firearms and sensationalizes the criminal misuse of firearms to push their agenda.

Firearms used in self defense far out numbers the criminal misuse.

ghostgeek: Wild, are you saying that criminals using guns are vastly outnumbered by law-abiding citizens blasting away? Interesting, because Texas A&M University did a study of "stand your ground" laws. The abstract of the study's conclusions is as follows:

"From 2000 to 2010, more than 20 states passed so-called “castle doctrine” or “stand your ground” laws. These laws expand the legal justification for the use of lethal force in self-defense, thereby lowering the expected cost of using lethal force and increasing the expected cost of committing violent crime. This paper exploits the within-state variation in self-defense law to examine their effect on homicides and violent crime. Results indicate the laws do not deter burglary, robbery, or aggravated assault. In contrast, they lead to a statistically significant 8 percent net increase in the number of reported murders and non-negligent manslaughters".

ghostgeek: The study can be found here:

http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle_doctrine.pdf

SoulVIBE: Here is an accurate account of the "American experience"...although, its certainly not just America that is like this...with or without guns

SoulVIBE: i share in hopes it will bring you a better understanding...take care, Peace and 1 Love to ALL

Geoff: Is it not true that the most vocal opponents to both gun controls and effective welfare reform are Republicans? That is not to say that both automatically go hand in hand, it was generalisation but one borne out by the available data.

Rather than dismissing my observation (which I stated was an observation, and am quite willing to revise), how about countering it with some facts?

ghostgeek: I read an interesting news report today about some Delaware man in a wheelchair shot by police.

ghostgeek: Is this an accurate account of the "American experience"?

ghostgeek: Not the only recent such shooting. Here's a post about a Baltimore County police officer fatally shooting a black man waving his finger 'like a gun':

"Baltimore County police say a man fatally shot by an officer was unarmed but aggressive and used his finger as if it was a gun after he tried to obtain narcotic cough syrup with a forged prescription.

Police said the man was shot and killed Wednesday afternoon in Reisterstown, a Baltimore suburb, when he didn't follow commands to stop during a confrontation near the Nature Care Pharmacy.

On Thursday, police said video footage showed the man aggressively approaching an officer before reaching around his back, then abruptly swinging his arm forward - at which point the officer fired."

[ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3248064/County-Man-shot-Maryland-officers-unarmed-aggressive.html ]

ghostgeek: If the police can behave in such a reckless manner, why should we believe that armed citizens will act with more restraint?

lori100: Some do react rashly....kids with black toy guns have been shot because the cop thought it was a real gun...if they see movements to a pocket or other that could be getting a gun some will react as if it was a gun....cops never know who is pulling a gun on them...if the suspect is black they will be more scared of him sadly...

ghostgeek: If cops never know who is pulling a gun on them, why should ordinary members of the public know any better?

lori100: they don't, but cops deal with violence every day and react quickly if they feel threatened...some are worse than others.....

ghostgeek: If police officers can react so badly to a perceived threat, how much more lethal ordinary untrained citizens will be if allowed to walk around armed.

lori100: ....in your video you hear them say 'show me your hands, drop the gun'....I don't know if the guy had a gun , but they thought he did....when confronted by a cop you need to show your hands so they will feel less threatened and be less likely to shoot, even for traffic stops....sad but true....

lori100: Texas and Florida have concealed gun laws---all are allowed to register to carry a gun...I wonder what the crime stats are now vs. past years....in Florida on a talk show they said home invasions had sharply dropped after the gun law changed because Floridians will shoot first and ask questions later...

ghostgeek: I believe the police claim a gun was found by his side but nobody so far is saying he had one in his hands.

lori100: Maybe they heard he had a gun which is why they felt so threatened....maybe it was for his own protection being in a chair....who knows....you can hear bystanders saying 'hands up'...trying to prevent him from getting shot..they know what to do....

ghostgeek: I read that the home he was living in reported to police that he had shot himself. That's what got the police out in the first place.

lori100: ok,,,,then it could have been a case of 'suicide by cop' ....a suicidal guy will get in a confrontation with cops hoping they will shoot him because he's unable to kill himself....cops are often aware when it is a suicide by cop and try to prevent shooting him.....very sad...

ghostgeek: If that was the case, surely he's have been waving his gun around?

lori100: not always....could be on drugs or just too depressed...