Communism - Workers of the world unite!

Communist_: .

The social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production, absence of social classes, money and the state.

Communism can be reached through two ideologies:
Anarchism
Socialism

In recent yearsm the name, "communism" or "socialism" has been turned round, it has been ruined, and labelled wrongly by capitalist propaganda.

What communists want:

- No leader, leading people.
- Equality among everyone.
- No rich or poor people. Everyone to be equally rich.
- No banks, private corporation
- Abolishment of private properties and the "Free" Market.
- No borders, to unite the entire world, smashing the borders.
- Banning of nationalism and patriotism, which commnists think is the core propaganda weapon that leads us to wars.
- Promotion of Athiesm. Many people get this wrong: Communists are not against the total banning of religion. Lenin nor Marx said that religon has to be banned.
- True democracy, where there is equality.
- The power is in the hands of the workers.
- Freedom!

"WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE, FOR YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CHAINS" Karl Marx.



I made this post to spread communism, I don't want people coming in here offending other communists - neither want communists offending non communists. The thread is opened to debunk any misleading facts you may have about communism, especially the "Stalin killed 100 billion people, which he did not." And it's for debate.


Enjoy!

chronology: You are faced with the mystery of 'what' human beings are, and what their origins is. Marxists were ecstatic with Darwin, life made sense after all, humans were just apes who 'mutated' into an organised 'community' . But soon these apes were enslaving other apes and waging war to conquer other apes. Philosophers found this behaviour totally alien to apes, maybe ants did this kind of organised slavery, but not apes.

There is also the discovery of vast building projects in the past, this turns Marx upside down, according to his ideas people got smarter, not dumber. So how did people in the past create such momentous buildings? This is critical for Marxists to explain away, like people, society they claim just got better and better, so who or what created the world wide civilisation in the past around 20.000 years ago.

You can argue that these problems are just philosophical oddities, but if an idea, like communism, which is based on the evolution of people and society is clearly wrong in both it's studies, then how can it be trusted to work out in practice?

Communist_: You're disproving Evolution?

Marxists believe humans get smarter, I agree. But out smartness is the essential product to sustain a communist society. It's the power of human will.

If you've read the Bible, The environment Jesus tried to achieve was a socialist society, like the USSR. And socialism will eventually lead to communism.

chronology: You must be reading about another 'Jesus' . The Jesus I read in the Bible is an absolute dictator who acts any way He wants to. Socialism is the last type of Government He would want. I may be mistaken but God still runs a Slave State.

gronchbove: Now is the time.

Everywhere, the Danglo Capitalists are destroying nations. They control the media and continually lie about Communists. In the future, the Communists might perform better.

Communist_: Chronology, I'm not referring to Jesus, in particular, but the societies he tried to create, were socialst societies. Where equality and freedom came first, before money and leadership.

gronchbove: Yeah, Jesus cared about the people. "From each according to their skills and to each according to their needs."

You know these systems have 99% of it right. They forget to leave out the 1% that makes all the difference. We must include our Creator in our existence to make it whole. I did not create me. No government created me. Higher beings created us.

Freedom!

We were created to be free.

chronology: Communist. You have got to be joking. Religious idiots built insane societies and still do. Would you live in any country that was dominated by any religion?

gronchbove: Religion is man-made. The concepts are spiritual. Much of life is spiritual, but we are trapped in systems that do not care about our spiritual well-being. Freedom is a spiritual good. Slavery is a material restriction.

Outbackjack: "Communism can be reached through two ideologies:
Anarchism
Socialism "

These are three different ideologies.While at the edges they may have similar aims they are all three completely different contrasts.

"What communists want:

- No leader, leading people."

This is Anarchism

"- Banning of nationalism and patriotism, which communists think is the core propaganda weapon that leads us to wars."

Ideology leads people to wars.Whether it is the idea that religion,nationalism or politics makes one group of people superior to another.Also the old fashioned idea of stealing someones else resources.

"- Promotion of Athiesm. Many people get this wrong: Communists are not against the total banning of religion. Lenin nor Marx said that religion has to be banned."

Show me a Communist state that has not banned religion or changed it to suit its own propaganda?

"- True democracy, where there is equality."

Examples please?

You are right about Stalin not killing 100 billion as there have never been that many people alive throughout history.

Stalin killed closer to 50 million people.

Communist_: "These are three different ideologies" - Theyre two different ideoligies, with the same goal - a commune society.


"- No leader, leading people. This is Anarchism " Yes it is. It is also a pure communist society as well, communism is against oppresion and classes. If there is a leader, the leader has the authority to oppress and hence is in a class of their own - which is against communism.


"Ideology leads people to wars" Depends on what the ideology is. In a pure commune society, there are no different ideologies. Hence no religions etc. But if you mean political ideologies, then i also disgaree, they don't lead to war. It was the USA that wanted wars. USSR did not go to capitalist countries burning them to groung and chemically gassing millions. From what I remember, that was USA in Vietnam, Yugoslavia, etc...


"Show me a Communist state that has not banned religion" FIrst of all, a "communist state" is an oxymoron and makes absolute no sense. Second of all there has not been a communist soceity acheieved in the modern world. Thirdly, Lenin's Socialist Republic of 1918-1924 was probably the most democratic and most freely society in histroy. Where he gave the millions of Muslims their freedom again, after centuries of oppresion from the Tsar regime.


"- True democracy, where there is equality." The USSR from 1918-1924 and 1953-1991. Gay people had rights 70 years before we gave them the rights. Women had rights decades before we gave them rights. Black had rights decades before we gave them rights. All religions were allowed to be freely expressed.

Democracy is a measure of freedom and equality, what many people think, it's "the right to elect your leader" Yes. That is right, but many have been brainwashed as to that is the ONLY definition. That is wrong. A simple Google Search and Google will provide you with its defintion.
Democracy defintion:
1) The right to elect a leader
2) The organastion run by the majority
3) Social equality

1) - It lacks in a socialist republic. But honestly, does changing leaders here in USA change anything? No...
2) - Is the complete opposite in a capitalist state, like USA. The country is run by 1%, the company will be run by the CEO not the workers. However in a socialist republic, the country is run by a workers party, who are constantly elected through a workers system. The companies will be run by the workers - the workers chose the rules and laws for themselves.
3) - This is an impossible in a capitalist society. Why? The Free Market. As long as there is this huge wealth gap, sociali equality is impossible to reach. However, in a socialist republic, everyone is equaly payed and hence equaliy rich = Socially equal.




"Stalin killed 50 million people"

He did not kill more than probably 100 innocent people. 50M is a lie. 10M is a lie. 1M is a lie. 100,000 is a lie. 10,000 is a lie and so is 1,000.

I would like you to give me hard evidence for any of his killings.

chronology: Communist. People have never been equally paid in communist countries. A skilled 'worker' such as a doctor or architect or surgeon will usually be paid double the basic wage and be allocated better housing and food rations. This was the case in Russia.

gronchbove: Personally, I want to be free. I think all people want that. In Capitalistic countries, bankers are "above the law." Chronology, I don't know where you live, but in the US and UK, in 2008 when the economy collapsed, the bankers were paid off with benefits paid by the poor. The poor programs are being cut.

Communist countries are also not afraid to punish evil bankers: Russia, Vietnam and China, for an example. Even under their own laws, the US and UK banks have admitted they have violated the law (see LIBOR).

I see Communism as a good counterpoint to Capitalism, but I also support a system allowing for spirituality.

chronology: gronchbove. I know how you feel, a lot of people are angry with the Banks, but the situation in 2008 is not as simple case of Banks being reckless. A major Wall Street Bank at that time insist they were the victims of mass hysteria, not bad Banking practice, they insist they could have solved their own problems, and kept their well paid jobs had they not been the focus of hysterical speculation by Brokers.
It was not just Wall Street, an Icelandic Bank Manager was describing how his Bank failed with practically zero warning. 'We arrived for work in the morning with nothing out of the ordinary apparent. But as the day progressed one crisis after another began to appear on the computer screens, by lunch time we were trying to cope with a wave of negative transactions and by closing time we had to inform the Authorities we were in serious trouble' . Literally they were hit in a matter of hours out of the blue so hard they could not pay creditors. It is pretty cruel to blame these Guys as they insist it was out of control markets, not their banks that had beached them on the sands of insolvency.

I agree 100pc the American people have seen their benefits and living standards fall in the years since 2008, it certainly looks like the only voices listened to are Wall Street Barons, even U.S. Business and Unions and Veterans and Farmers are not on the same level as Wall Street in Washington DC.

But before folks go calling people 'evil' and demanding punishment, you need to listen to the Banking staff left holding all the worthless stock. They insist it was dumped on them by opportunist rivals.

gronchbove: Chronology, 1) the top banks in the world have "admitted" they rigged LIBOR, 2) the top High Street banks have admitted they "mis-sold" housing insurance and 3) have you ever heard of NINJA loans? The banks sold NINJA loans - No income, no job and no assets.

The banks knew the people could not pay back the loans. Every day, the top banks "manipulate stock markets and engage in illegal behavior." JP Morgan was fined for manipulating energy prices. The Vatican bank was found guilty of "drug money laundering."

Here is just one link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/20/us-banks-forex-settlement-idUSKBN0O50CQ20150520

You can find several examples where the Bankers have committed crimes and NOT been punished.

Outbackjack: "Yes it is. It is also a pure communist society as well, communism is against oppresion and classes. If there is a leader, the leader has the authority to oppress and hence is in a class of their own - which is against communism"

Bollocks.

"In a pure commune society, there are no different ideologies."

So people are not allowed to have different ideas? Sounds like old fashioned oppression to me.

" USSR did not go to capitalist countries burning them to groung and chemically gassing millions."

The USSR invaded Hungary,Czechoslovakia,Afghanistan and others.Have you never heard of the Berlin Wall?

"FIrst of all, a "communist state" is an oxymoron and makes absolute no sense."

It makes perfect sense.You need to go back basics and actually read and understand what the definition of a state is

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State

"Thirdly, Lenin's Socialist Republic of 1918-1924 was probably the most democratic and most freely society in histroy. Where he gave the millions of Muslims their freedom again, after centuries of oppresion from the Tsar regime"

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!

You are an absolute clown! I wont waste too much of my time telling you some basics.

1.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror
2.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion
3.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Dzerzhinsky

Anarchists were amongst some of the first people murdered by Lenin.

"The USSR from 1918-1924 and 1953-1991. Gay people had rights 70 years before we gave them the rights. Women had rights decades before we gave them rights. Black had rights decades before we gave them rights. ."

What about the rights of people to think freely?

"All religions were allowed to be freely expressed"

That is a blatant falsehood.

"He did not kill more than probably 100 innocent people. 50M is a lie. 10M is a lie. 1M is a lie. 100,000 is a lie. 10,000 is a lie and so is 1,000.

I would like you to give me hard evidence for any of his killings"

Evidence? It is widely acknowledged just like the holocaust.Millions died in the gulags.I assume by your naive defence of stalin that you support this monster? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin


http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09668139608412393?journalCode=ceas20#.VcxGkvn8nIU

http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2006/05/01/how-many-did-stalin-really-murder/

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/september/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310.html

I could send you links all day and mountains of evidence from people who were there but I am sure you would try and pretend that it is some kind of Capitalist propaganda.

Communist_: The thing is, it is capitalist propaganda! There's no real evidence AT ALL!

This "Stalin killed X" was a myth started by Joseph Goebbels. Who passed the info to William Hearst a great friend of Hitler.

William Hearst owned a massive media during the 30s 40s and his family still does to this day.

That's real evidence. You can search all this up.

What you have were links to articles in which they go on without providing a single piece of evidence. You're clearly brainwashed.


And a communist state doesn't make sense dude.... 😒

Communist_: And if it's killing you want to talk about, let's do so:

100M natives killed by the US
100M+ killed by the European empires
Millions of blacks dead. Millions more slaves.
Millions dead in Vietnam
1.6m dead in Iraq
Libya
Yemen
Nigeria
Syria
400K in Afghanistan
Pakistan
Over 120,000 Palestinians killed by Israel since 2000.

So if it's killing you wish to discuss. Just remember, capitalists did it x10000 worse. And there's evidence behind it. Communists killed 10000x less but still there's no real.evidence at all.

chronology: Communist you are being silly now. The U.S.actually saved around 100.000 lives by liberating Iraq. The Iraqi people were suffering and starving infill U.S.girls and boys ended the period of Sanctions. This is a 'fact' plain and simple, 50.000 Iraqis a year were dieing.

Ever hear of the mass murder of 20.000 Poles by the Bolsheviks in WW2. The German Army discovered the mass graves and invited International Authorities and the Red Cross to examine the graves. But the Bolsheviks still walked free and blamed Germany.

Outbackjack: He calls me brainwashed.Sheesh! Look at yourself.

I have created many threads over the years detailing the deaths by Capitalist countries who have invaded others.Most of them are still here.You are welcome to go and look.

But you created this thread called "Communism" and it is this that we are discussing.Going on about Capitalist countries deaths seems to me that you are excusing the deaths by Stalin.Well maybe not.I mean you are outright denying that despite the overwhelming evidence.One question.Do you deny the Nazi holocaust too?

Lets look at what might have happened had history been different.

1.If the Kronstadt sailors (who Lenin/Trotsky had called the vanguard of the revolution) had been successful in their workers uprising then the Soviet Union would have been different i.e no Lenin or Stalin.What direction it would have taken we will never know.

2.Had Lenin not been shot by a would be assassin then maybe (and it is a huge maybe) there would not have been a huge crackdown on Non Soviets.

3.Lenin left it a bit too late to anoint a successor.He did want Trotsky to take over but failed to make it clear until he was dieing. Had Trotsky taken over then we would have NO STALIN.Would Trotsky have been better?

He could hardly of been worse.I mean 50 million dead is pretty much a world record.

But we all know what happened to Trotsky. Stalin had him killed with an icepick in Mexico.

This photo is just for you Communist.It shows some of Stalins closest Comrades that he had murdered;

https://occupymelbournenet.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/cc-1917.jpg

Communist_: Trotsky is an anti-revolutionist. He's an ex-menshevik and promoted revisionism early in the USSR.
Have you ever bothered reading Trotkysm? I guess not. It's against Stalinism. Have you ever read Stalinism? I guess not. It's exactly Marxist Leninism.

Trotsky at first was even against the vanguard workers dictatorship party! This lead to the splitting of Lenin and Trotsky.

Trotsky wanted the Kulaks to gain wealth to bring profit. He wanted private property allowed until USSR economy was well prepared. He wanted sections of the vanguard split into left and right. This is ALL against Leninism.

"Trotsky is arrogant" Lenin's exact words. And he never wanted Trotsky in charge. "It will corrupt the movement" Lenin's exact words. In 1916 Trotsky even left the revolution to a city called Omsk in South Russia.

You say he wanted Trotsky in charge? LOL! He had high hopes with Lev Kamenev until Kamenev sided with anti revolutionism. Lenin wanted Nikolai Bukharin in charge. He classed him as one of the greatest writers and one if the best members of the vanguard. Nikolai gave his vote to Stalin though.


And:
http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/lies.html#The myth
Debunks all the anti stalin myths you've heard.

Want more proof?

THE SOVIET UNION MANUFACTURED A FAMINE IN UKRAINE

RESOURCE 1: Fraud, Famine, and Fascism by Douglas Tottle http://rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefraud.pdf

RESOURCE 2: "The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933" by Mark Tauger http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Tauger,%20%27The%201932%20Harvest%20and%20the%20Famine%20of%201933,%20SR%2091.pdf

RESOURCE 3: Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931–1933 by Mark Tauger http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Tauger,%20Natural%20Disaster%20and%20Human%20Actions.pdf

RESOURCE 4: The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931–1933 by Davies and Wheatcroft http://libgen.in/get.php?md5=32DAA2871728468189A57E0233492A3A

_____________

THE SOVIET UNION REPRESSED AND KILLED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE

RESOURCE 1: The Triumph of Evil by Austin Murphy http://redscans.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/austin-murphy-the-triumph-of-evil.pdf

RESOURCE 2: Human Rights in the Soviet Union by Albert Syzmanski http://archive.org/details/HumanRightsInTheSovietUnion

RESOURCE 3: Another View of Stalin by Ludo Martens http://www.scribd.com/doc/36425175/Ludo-Martens-Another-View-of-Stalin

RESOURCE 4: Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives by Getty and Manning http://libgen.in/get.php?md5=6513AE40D043D98FFE6031A776783160

RESOURCE 5: Origins of the Great Purges by J Arch Getty http://libgen.in/get.php?md5=202D73A751817E9D047121E74D02671C

RESOURCE 6: The Road to Terror by J Arch Getty http://libgen.in/get.php?md5=a87ecbb483bf27f182f31626527035a6

RESOURCE 7: Other studies by historian J Arch Getty http://kasamaproject.org/history/2674-6j-arch-getty-creating-alternative-new-history-of-soviet-30s

RESOURCE 8: The Legacy of Stalinism by "brown-eggs" marxism-third-worldism.tumblr.com/post/82610306586/anti-stalinism-and-the-legacy-of-state-socialism

RESOURCE 9: Khrushchev Lied by Grover Furr http://libgen.in/get.php?md5=e6bc9593a1787378b671944f51b393a9

RESOURCE 10: Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti http://libgen.in/get.php?md5=2A465EA2A003644077523F690545F113

RESOURCE 11: Blood Lies: The Evidence that Every Accusation against Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union in Timothy Snyder's 'Bloodlands' Is False by Grover Furr http://libgen.in/get.php?md5=4f13589002a3dfa4b0139b332fef54ad


But I've said it before, quit bringing up "Stalin killed x" as they're all lies without any hard evidence. (Read the pages I showed you. It debunks it very well, especially the first 'Stalin Society' link) and either way, capitalists have killed 10000x more people...

Communist_: In other words, Trotsky was against the Vanguard. His ideology Trotskyism is the bases for revisionism. Trosikite doctrine is exactly anti revolutionism. He promoted collectivism which lead to the forming of Kulaks and the opening of a free market. His first chapter in Trokiyte is based on Menshivism.

AGAINST Leninism. He was what we call a "mutual Marxist."

Do you know any Trotskists?
I'll give you two:
Nikita Krushchev - who was so awful that he got kicked off the premier spot and replaced by Leonid Brezhnev.
Mikhail Gorbachev - who was so awful, it led to the collapsation of the economy and the breaking of the USSR.

In other words TROTSKYISM is a failure. It's a weak version of "cultural Marxism"

Stalin did what had to be done. He knew Trotsky's ideology was corrupt. And that's why no other revolutionarie ever followed Trotskyism. Instead they took on Stalinism:
EG:
North Korea - 1945
China - Mao Zedong - 1947
Cuba revolution - Che Guevara - 1950s-1960s.
Vietnam war - Ho Chi Minh - 1955-1975


Some fun facts:
Nikita has an approval ratings of just 40% in Russia by the Russian people.
Gorbachev has the worst approval ratings in Russia at around 15%.
Stalin has 65%+.

This was a poll recently done in 2012.

Outbackjack: You are so hilarious Communist but you have still failed to answer my main question:

Do you believe the Nazi holocaust happened?

Firstly I would like to say i am no Trotskyist.It is just obviously clear to anyone without blinkers (like yourself) that he was quite clearly the lesser of two evils when compared with Stalin the thug..

"Trotsky is an anti-revolutionist. He's an ex-menshevik and promoted revisionism early in the USSR."

Trotsky was quite clearly a revolutionary and an active one at that.Against the Whites he rode on horseback in the heat of battle rallying the reds to fight against the enemy whilst gunfire and bombs exploded all around him.

Compare this with Stalin the pen pushing desk jockey....

He turned tale and ran like a scared child and hid in his Dacha when his "mate" Hitler invaded the Soviet union.

I don't know how you even try to claim Trotsky was not a revolutionary.He wanted to take revolution to the whole world and bring down Capitalism.Stalin was too scared and famously used the phrase Socialism in one country for his inaction to bring down worldwide Capitalism.


You need to actually read about the Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks.Originally they both worked together in a social democratic framework before they split.

Hardly revolutionary stuff.

"Trotsky at first was even against the vanguard workers dictatorship party."

Here we have it:

DICTATORSHIP PARTY!

So you support the vanguard workers dictatorship party I assume?

So answer this and it is your most important point.

How does this relate to your above claims of freedom?

"Trotsky is arrogant" Lenin's exact words. And he never wanted Trotsky in charge. "It will corrupt the movement" Lenin's exact words"

So he said Trotsky was arrogant?
So what.
With that mob they were all a bunch of arrogant pricks with Stalin at the head of them.Orwell did nt describe them as pigs for no apparent reason.

But lets look at what Lenins exact words were:

In Lenin's 'Testament', he was described as having 'outstanding ability' and 'perhaps the most capable man in the present Central Committee'

"And:
http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/lies.html#The myth
Debunks all the anti stalin myths you've heard.

Want more proof?"

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!

Proof from a mob called the Stalin Society??????

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!

Thats like asking Goebbels whether Hitler was a good man.Why would I even bother looking any further at your bullshit propaganda/

Communist_: Read the links dude I still await your evidence on Stalin being the mass murderer.


And you just embarrassed yourself!
Revolutionism in Marxism is the idea of just one revolution. Trotsky believed there should be a revolution every few decades to keep socialism alive - hence anti-revolutionism.
That does not mean he wasn't a revolutionary loooooooooooooooooool

And secondly you wrote:

"
"Trotsky at first was even against the vanguard workers dictatorship party."

Here we have it:

DICTATORSHIP PARTY!

So you support the vanguard workers dictatorship party I assume?
"


I get it. You clearly lack knowledge in politics and uneducated in Marxism. So why bother continuing to argue on a topic you know next to nothing about? Seriously...


"Vanguard Workers Dictatorship Party" is not a dictatorship dude...
Read the line!!! "Workers" "Vanguard" "Party"
It's a council made by the workers - US THE PEOPLE - were we - US THE PEOPLE - choose the laws and - US THE PEOPLE - are the leaders. That's what it means. Unless I'm guessing you don't want the people to be in charge instead private corporationa?

Outbackjack: You are a glutton for punishment.

I have offered proof of Stalins atrocities.You have rejected it and come back with some nonsense from a mob called the Stalin Society.

But you refuse to answer my most basic questions.

Do you believe the Nazi Holocaust happened?

""Vanguard Workers Dictatorship Party" is not a dictatorship dude...
Read the line!!! "Workers" "Vanguard" "Party"
It's a council made by the workers - US THE PEOPLE - were we - US THE PEOPLE - choose the laws and - US THE PEOPLE - are the leaders. That's what it means"

O........K

So why does it say Dictatorship and I repeat again .

How does this relate to your above claim of Communism being freedom?

Outbackjack: I have to say I am also fascinated by this "Stalin Society"

I find it very hard to imagine what kind of society they would be.They sound like a very anti-social mob.

What do they do when they meet? Plot political domination? Paint the town quite literally red?Play Risk?

They could hardly play Cluedo I assume as it would go like this every single time:

It was Stalin in the Kremlin with the Icepick.