Shy Racists, Sock-Puppet Accounts and the ‘Black Lives Matter’ room.

Him_over_there:
Being a political activist I have always noticed how certain seminal events within a nation tend to polarise Class forces; big industrial battles for example, confirming the existence of long standing historical battle lines. Now, with widespread attention focussed particularly on how US Law enforcement are targeting and killing an inordinate number of innocent African Americans and the corresponding rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, we can see a similar polarisation, not just along Class lines, but a massive fault line of racial division.

We live in a period of increased censorship. All the big social media platforms have made themselves in many ways redundant by exercising often covert, sometimes open banning of accounts that express opinions deemed to be ‘offensive, too radical or part of a fake narrative’ so I was quite pleased Wireclub allowed the ‘Black Lives Matter Room’ to exist as a forum to discuss the controversial viewpoints around this issue.

What became abundantly clear quite immediately, was a pre-existing hotbed of pent up feelings; of long suppressed frustration amongst those using the room, reflecting societies of people holding long standing prejudices, with no real lines of communication to the people they detest; and I hold corporate Capitalism to blame for this failure; with all their control over every avenue of mainstream media, being instead wasted on puerile and shallow content.

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Him_over_there:

The need for real dialogue is clear, and given the sheer number of shy racists (by which I mean people who will not openly admit their proclivity towards racial prejudice) who have surfaced in this room, along with other strange characters who went to the trouble of actually inventing ‘sock-puppet’ accounts (this is when a photo is stolen from some unsuspecting person, and used to air a hidden person’s views) the need is quite urgent.

Sadly one crucial element, lacking in the BLM room are ‘Black’ voices. Those who do show up seem nervous or timid; the pressures of such a debate seem all too overwhelming for many, leaving racists the dominant presence, with only a small handful of Leftists and Socialists to cut through their ideological bile.

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Him_over_there:

Chatroom: Black Lives Matter

Lucy Bullish Pearl: Him, you need better control of your room. I understand you don't believe in censorship but when things get out of hand, boot those suckers!!! Looooooool

Him_over_there:
Ha, ha.

Then I take it you will be making a more active contribution to the room [Lucy Bullish Pearl], if I assume an iron hand there?

Lucy Bullish Pearl: I always make an active contribution to the room.

MJ59: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/letters-to-the-editor/dont-let-the-black-lives-matter-movement-get-hijacked/2020/07/27/08d428cc-cddd-11ea-99b0-8426e26d203b_story.html

GeraldtheGnome: PCLM, as well as racist and reverse racist sectors of this site are allowed ? Nothing new about that happening on this site. It’s still a safe haven for the far left and far right. I feel sorry for everyone caught in the middle of it all.

Him_over_there:

Somehow [GeraldtheGnome} I don't think you will find the ‘safety’ you desire, huddling your indifferent back-side on the central dividing line of a busy highway.

(as if you’re not already in the Alt-Right lane)

Lucy Bullish Pearl: ^^^^

zeffur: Politics is all about trying to take or shift advantage from one group to another. We should avoid all of those caustic strategies as they create unfairnesses & unnecessary turmoil amongst US citizens.

BLM is by definition all about blacks (when in truth 'all lives matter'---blacks aren't the only citizens harmed by police crimes). Their slogan should have been "Stop Criminal Police"

The Native American movement is about further extorting US taxpayers for benefits. Native Americans ARE US citizens--they do not deserve special treatment, special rights, tax breaks, & tax benefits paid to them from US taxpayers--because they lost to the settlers in past wars. We (the US) signed hundreds of treaties with them to allow them special rights in certain areas as a mechanism for preventing further war & genocide. It's way past time to pull out of all of those treaties, nationalize all the lands/resources, & put them in the public domain just like all other areas in the US. There should be NO special rights provided for ANY US citizens--as doing so is a slight to & swindling of all other US citizens. All US citizens should have a level playing field.

Him_over_there:

[zeffur] states politics is about the shifting of advantage from one group to another, and this is largely true in terms of Class relations; however, in of itself advantage isn't necessarily a bad thing. Patients being treated in a hospital should have an advantage of choice over those administering medical procedures. Students also when selecting their courses etc. rather than being dictated to by more qualified individuals. (doctors and professors).

BLM on the other hand, in relation to policing are not asking for special funds or treatment; only that they are afforded the same presumption of innocence that other citizens (theoretically) enjoy. Demanding ‘Not’ to be viciously gunned down by law enforcement for sleeping in a car, or holding a kitchen knife in one’s own home, or wandering out of one’s house in a night-gown is hardly a call for privilege.

zeffur: re: "Patients being treated in a hospital should have an advantage of choice over those administering medical procedures"

That ^^ problem is created by greed in the health-theft industry & by socializing medicine (which is to say ensuring all people have the right to go get healthcare (unfortunately not the same right to get the same quality of care) using the available resources that are within the system (of course the greedy entities carving out the profit that they want first & using the remainder for patient resources & services--which will always result in rationing & care inequities because the teat will never been enough for everyone's proper/equal quality healthcare. In short it is a greed & mismanagement problem that should be fixable, but our political system gives more weight to the providers in the system than to the receivers of the care.

re: " Students also when selecting their courses etc. rather than being dictated to by more qualified individuals."

Please elaborate on that ^^. When I went to university, all students got to choose the available courses for their majors. Of course, certain professors are limited in how many people they can handle, so you couldn't always get the professor that you might want. That's just a supply & demand situation that is dealt with on a first come first served basis. If you registered & selected your classes early, then your chance of getting the class offered by the professors of your choice was greater than if you waited to register & enroll in classes.

re: "BLM on the other hand, in relation to policing are not asking for special funds or treatment; only that they are afforded the same presumption of innocence that other citizens (theoretically) enjoy."

The problem isn't that they should want that--the problem is that they are using race as a card to try to get it. If they would politic on a race-neutral basis then that would be a less divisive approach. They should use the freedom of information act & other tools or demand better tools to get the info that makes the case that police are engaging in criminal or unfair misconduct. Then push for the support of everyone to create the changes that are necessary to hold police accountable for wrong doing & to change their day-2-day conducted & to root-out bad cops. They are pushing for defunding the police--which is insane & will lead to even more unfair policing by private groups who will enforce their own values upon other people. What we don't want is mob-rule. We want a law enforcement that treats everyone fairly & equally--not a system which will cause group vigilantism & allow some crimnials (or criminal enterprises) to operate without any effective resources applied to defeat them.

re: "Demanding ‘Not’ to be viciously gunned down by law enforcement for sleeping in a car, or holding a kitchen knife in one’s own home,..."

First of all, we need to stop reframing situations improperly. The guy that got shot at the fast food place didn't get shot because he fell asleep in his car--he got shot because he fought with the police, attempted to flee the police, & most importantly because he shot at the officer in pursuit with one of the stun-guns that he stole from one of the officiers. Had he cooperated, he would still be alive today.

re: ".. or wandering out of one’s house in a night-gown is hardly a call for privilege."

I have no idea what that ^^ means.

With the respect to a person using a knife in their own home to threaten police, if the police are dispatched to someone's house & that person pulls a deadly weapon (i.e. a knife) on the police who are there on official business & won't cooperate with the police, I think the police do have the right to use the appropriate force to cope with the situation. For example, they should be able to use a stun-gun or if their own life is literally in danger (lets say the person with the knife has it to the throat of one of the officiers) then they should be able to defend themself with lethal force.

There are ways to honestly assess each situation & not misrepresent the facts to distort & fan the flames of racism. We should be honest & civil in evaluating the facts.

Are there situations in which police have exceeded proper judgment & action--definitely! What we should be discussing is how to gain transparency into those situations, how to identify & eliminate criminal police, & how to set police policies & training to create a more accountable & fair system of law enforcement--not what's been happening using racism tactics to inflame the situation as a mechanism to create crisis to try to institute radical changes that will not serve our communities properly.

Him_over_there:

[zeffur]
I will deal with your points as succinctly as possible given your needlessly laborious reply.

1 - References to patients and students were merely examples of groups within society having priority of choice within a system, I used to negate your assertion that such practices must always be avoided.

2 - You claim Blacks are using their race as a card to attempt to achieve fair policing. This is a perverted way to assess the situation. Because race is the very cause of a problem created by the Police force. So your advice [“If they would politic on a race-neutral basis then that would be less divisive approach.”] in reference to a racial issue is meaningless.

3 - Your view that information retrieval is key to proving Police wrong-doing also is not the real issue. Any objective set of eyes can already see the proclivity of Police violence towards Blacks, and further that the corrupt system does not hold the same accountable for their crimes unless the threat of national riots are at hand.

4 - Only a totally new system of Policing can change this set of problems. From Capitalist State to Worker’s state controlled Policing. BLM have reached Socialist conclusions in order to solve the problems of Capitalism.

5 - Why do I say Rayshard Brooks was killed for sleeping in his car outside a Wendy's restaurant instead of running away? The simple reason is that he, along with George Floyd, Stephon Clarke, Bothan Jean, and a bewildering number of unarmed, innocent people were killed for being Black men; as well as Tanisha Anderson who was bipolar, and left her house in her nightgown only to be killed by racist Police in front of her family. And to ascribe any other reason is equally ridiculous; is to make apologies, representing an insult to the gravity of the events.

zeffur: re: "Him_over_there: 1 - References to patients and students were merely examples of groups within society having priority of choice within a system, I used to negate your assertion that such practices must always be avoided."

I didn't imply 'such practices must always be avoided' I merely pointed out that some injustices aren't race related. Some times it is about greed & mismanagement--not race. Other times it is about some races thinking they should always get what they want when in reality they only represent a small fraction of society & sometimes they don't get what they want because they don't have the political capital to get what they want (e.g.: Blacks may fight hard to defund the police but being only ~13% of the population)--when voting time comes on such issues, they are a minority in the political process--by definition they will not likely get what they want unless they can form a coalition of people who will vote with them.

re: "2 - You claim Blacks are using their race as a card to attempt to achieve fair policing. This is a perverted way to assess the situation. Because race is the very cause of a problem created by the Police force. So your advice [“If they would politic on a race-neutral basis then that would be less divisive approach.”] in reference to a racial issue is meaningless."

It's not perverted at all & race is NOT the main issue. The main issue is criminal police actions. If they were to not make race their primary issue & politic to get access to more criminal police info quicker & gather & show facts to justify their cases against criminal police actions & solicity the support of other citizens for their demand for proper changes, then they would be much more effective than they are when they have protests & allow & support the actions of rioters, looters, & anarchists (which are all criminals) as a means of trying to force a crisis to try to get what they want.

re: "3 - Your view that information retrieval is key to proving Police wrong-doing also is not the real issue. Any objective set of eyes can already see the proclivity of Police violence towards Blacks, and further that the corrupt system does not hold the same accountable for their crimes unless the threat of national riots are at hand."

You err. My offering was meant to allow them to get info that the police intentionally suppress (often for long periods of time) to aid their cause in seeking justice against unjust actions. They certainly can & do use whatever private video that they have or that they can obtain (which I would support legislation which allows them to legally force uncooperative people who have such evidence to provide such evidence per a court order if they refuse to provide it to them to support the truth of their claims).

re: "4 - Only a totally new system of Policing can change this set of problems. From Capitalist State to Worker’s state controlled Policing. BLM have reached Socialist conclusions in order to solve the problems of Capitalism."

None of that ^^ is true. The vast majority of police are not bad cops. The truth is that some bad police do bad things to people of every race--blacks aren't the only race experiencing such problems. Other races just aren't affected by it as much because they often don't engage in as many illegal activities as black males often do out of desperation, or to try to get ahead, or to live the kind of superficial life that is often portraited in their popular music. Capitalism isn't the problem & socialism will definitely not be the solution that you think--it will be what robs you of freedom & returns you to state-run slavery--you just don't realize it yet, because you haven't properly studied socialist societies in the world.

re: "5 - Why do I say Rayshard Brooks was killed for sleeping in his car outside a Wendy's restaurant instead of running away? The simple reason is that he...[was] killed for being Black men.."

So his fighting the police & shooting at one of them with the stun-gun that he stole from one of the cops had nothing to do with it, huh? That's the problem with some people--they don't have the ability to be honest about the facts. Had he cooperated fully with the police he very likely would have been alive today--and you know it. Stop pretending otherwise that it was only because he was a black man. As to the others who were cooperating properly & who posed no genuine threat to the police--I think anyone with a conscience knows such criminal police actions should be prosecuted properly with a complete review of all of the facts. Police work in a very dangerous job--there are many facts that should be taken into consideration to make a proper judgment--some people get bits & pieces of the facts & make improper judgments about a situation & the cirumstances that make their judgment faulty. But, again, in cases like George Floyd--such cops should be prosecuted if they violated the law or police policies. If the policies need to be change--then that is what should be done also.

re: "...as well as Tanisha Anderson who was bipolar, and left her house in her nightgown only to be killed by racist Police in front of her family."

While I don't know the circumstances of that situation, it is clear that some citizens have indeed been shot &/or killed by police unjustifiably. I am 100% in support of taking appropriate measures to root out such bad police, change policies regarding mentally ill citizens where it makes sense, & to change ANY other police policies that should be changed to end the criminal killing of ANY citizen.

re: "...And to ascribe any other reason is equally ridiculous; is to make apologies, representing an insult to the gravity of the events."

I make no apologies for any criminal police actions. They are bad from any perspective & changes should be made to get rid of bad police & change policies to prevent such things from happening in the future. I do not support defunding the police in favor of community activists who are not properly trained to serve as police, who will make up their own unfair policies & apply them unfairly to people of other races (just as some police have done--which is the very thing that we all should be trying to eliminate). There is no way to community police to adequately & properly deal with modern criminals in a consistent & fair manner. Such programs will be far worse than centralized police who have lots of proper training & they are properly held accountable when they have been proven to have violated laws & police policies. Your pipe dream of community policing would be many times worse, imo.

GeraldtheGnome: Him, you have a racist agenda, you may not think so but you are racist, I detest the far left and the far right. It is you that seeks 'safety' amongst the far left. I don't care if someone does disagree with me on anything so long as that Person is fair about it. The Black Lives Matters movement as much as it is against racism is itself a racist movement. Don't think for a second as you back the divisive, racist movement that that movement is addressing the Police brutality and deaths by Cops that happens to those of ALL races, religions, skin colours and so on.

Some White Cops are racist to blacks, some Black Cops are racists to Whites, some Cops are Arseholes to anyone and will not stop at anything to kill someone, yet as soon as one Cop or a bunch of them kill someone of another skin colour/race it's considered racist even at times when the Cop or Cops are the types that would kill anyone despite skin colour. What City did George Floyd live in ? Was he a Saint and does it matter if he was or wasn't ? What City did the ex pat Aussie Woman live in ? Was she a Saint and does it matter if she was or wasn't ?

Anyway Floyd was killed and regardless if the Cops were racist or not he didn't deserve it, also the Black Lives Matter Protests about it should never have happened. Many still believe that the killing of him is still a racist thing, I'm not telling you that that is so or not. The ex pat Aussie that was killed by a Black Muslim Cop did not get followed up by White Lives Matter protests worldwide, nor should it ever happen since that's racist too, yet some Black People (including Black Muslims) considered anything done about that Cop was and still is racist, some Black Muslims (including the Waleed Ali here in Australia) jumped to the conclusion that they were being racist and against Muslims. The Cop (so far as I know) isn't a Racist and never was, the move against him also was not a racist one and it certainly wasn't against Muslims. Yet the White panel on with Ali on TV never went against him, instead they changed the subject because they 'didn't want to be racist or seem to be that way. ' Don't worry 'Him' about the far right having control of most things since you, as well as your far left mates and the far right are having a virtual tug of war over the ever increasing political correctness that's ruining each country 'infected' by it quicker than Coronavirus is spreading around the World. I feel sorry for everyone that isn't of the far left and the far right. I wish for an Anarchic Committee or another proper Democratic system away from an 'AC' to stop the far left and the far right in each country. The lives of those of non Blacks killed by Cops mustn't matter to you and to others for the BLACK Lives Matter movement.

GeraldtheGnome: Another point, race shouldn't be an issue amongst you and all the others for the BLACK Lives Matter movement. It's something that you and your 'Mates' fail to realize.

Fractured fairy tale: Coarse Its Racist ,Its Derived from the Hebrew Roots movement
Grand Master Jake better learn how to use a Gun Before he gets some ones head blown off
Oh I see The Chaz black lives matter warlord was Arrested , Driving a Stolen car , He Started crying when he was arrested , Only in the Land of the Free
lol

Fractured fairy tale: Him black lives matter is like the ANC in South Africa. Taken over by Racists

GeraldtheGnome: Take into account that the ANC was the Political wing of the Terrorist group that Mandela led and started. But hey, we are all to think that he was a Hero fighting against racism. He did fight against non Black racists, that I'll admit. The problem isn't always fighting or protesting against something or someone or some People, the problem is how the fighting or protest is done and why if it's for the wrong reasons. In the case of the BLM Movement the problem is also that it's being carried out during a Coronavirus outbreak and it falsely gives the impression that it is against all forms of racism all while those that are a part of that movement are being racists. Some don't even think that they are racists. The most pathetic bit is that non Black People that support it are giving unfair preferential treatment to those that aren't of their race, that is usually referred to as reverse racism. Oh but it's a fad, they all think they will be considered 'on the right side of history' , great saviours in their Minds, Legends in their own lunchtime and in their own Minds, in reality they assume that it's 'cool' too. There are many great White, Black and other skin coloured People, but Floyd and some others shouldn't be considered Martyrs and they shouldn't be considered special, they aren't after all no matter what is so about them. This also reminds me of the now old Forum on he to support Kony against a rebel Army which had Child Soldiers, all whilst Kony had Child Soldiers fighting for his side. In other words the now ex supporters of the Kony campaign were hypocrites back then and the supporters of the now BLM movement are hypocrites.

Fractured fairy tale: History Is littered with people Who Fight agaist Oppressian , As they See it Especially When Its condoned by the State

zeffur: Land can never be truly owned--you can only keep it as long as you can defend it.

zeffur: That ^ is how socialists roll: divide, conquer, enslave.
It's not a new strategy--many people are just ignorant of history.