The rise of the far-right (Page 3)

Adam Southworth: I agree with lori100, if a powerful state, coercive social engineering, a regulated economy and suppression of opposition constitutes fascism, then many of the radical left are fascists

I think belief in a powerful and effective leader (s), nationalism, a powerful state, collectivism, national regeneration and a belief that the nation has a soul or volk that unites its people are core features of fascism. The left support some of these ideas. And I think many from the traditional left or former left-wing generations would have supported more of them.

murrayduan: lori100:-is the dems who oppose all others with different beliefs....cancelling, banning, censoring, de platforming..."

lori are you really that detached from reality?

You need to slow down and let your brain catch up to your mouth.

Who exactly banned Muslims, fears immigrants, fears Gays, fears transgender, or anyone different, Conservatives.

Who is banning others by building a Wall, restricting travel from other Countries, censuring them because they have different opinions on Trumps guilt, Conservatives.

Who is trying to restrict voting form millions with new rules, fewer voting sites, less ways to vote, fewer days to vote, restricting early voting days, Conservatives.

I am sure as uneducated as you are, you still know what you are saying is complete nonsense but post it anyway?

The good thing abut your posts is you display the ignorance we talk about in your party.

You really need mental help.

murrayduan: adamsouthworth: I agree with lori100, if a powerful state, coercive social engineering, a regulated economy and suppression of opposition constitutes fascism, then many of the radical left are fascists"
The left support some of these ideas. And I think many people from the traditional left or former left-wing generations"

First off you do not believe any of that, you are just hoping to get some attention.

Why else would you post things that are complete Oxymoron's.

"a powerful state" You mean like Trump acting like a Dictator.

"social engineering" telling Americans what they can and can not do, abortions, form Unions, require witnesses at an impeachment, holding back vital information about a Pandemic that leads to an extra 200 million deaths? Like Trump did.

"suppression of opposition" like claiming executive privilege when Americans file a lawsuit against Trump, deny his Tax returns, firing those who expose his wrongdoings, preventing people from testifying, restricting crucial information from being released, trying to overturn an election won by his opposition.

Like Trump did.

Children it is Ok to be misinformed or lied to, it is not Ok to repeat the lies and misinformation as if it was true..

MaIvado:
Adamsouthworth, can you clarify exactly what powerful state you are referring to and the real life present day cases of:

“coercive social engineering, a regulated economy and suppression of opposition constitutes fascism”?

I will also appreciate examples of how said left-wing are fascists.

murrayduan:
One minute Lefty's are Antifa the next they are Fascists'?

Depends on what Meds righty is on.

When you are as confused as Conservatives are what else would we expect?

MaIvado:
I was genuinely interested in my questions. Not bring rhetorical.

No harm in expanding your views here, Adam. I’m trying to understand the point you were making with applying it to the real life situation being discussed.

Adam Southworth: @Murrayduan

I believe everything I said because it is true. You are simply monomaniacally fixated on Trump, or too dishonest to concede facts. It is in no sense an oxymoron to equate the far-left with support of a powerful state, coercive social engineering, a highly regulated economy and violent suppression of opposition. No honest person who lived through the 20th century could dispute that. Nor could anyone one who lives in present day China. You don't even need to have read Marx or Alinsky, or studied the emergence of hard left ideology as I have, to know that these tactics and policies characterize the hard left as much as the hard right. Indeed, many of the hard right were originally hard left, and vice versa. Mussolini was a member of the Italian Socialist Party before he became a Fascist. Mao Zedong was a member of the Chinese Nationalist Party and Chinese Communist party. There are countless examples like that. This shouldn't surprise anyone who understands these movements.

The violence of the left unleashed for months last year in 12 separate states led to scores of deaths. These violent left-wing mobs have wrought chaos in multiple European countries. And the destruction and misery they wrought is a result of hard left revolutionary ideology, as are the restrictions of freedom of speech and deplatforming tactics commonplace at western universities and other institutions, the cult of political correctness, Orwellian hate speech laws, the deracination and denuding of western youth of their own culture and history, and the zeitgeist of disdain and hatred towards people of European descent. This is hard left ideology in practice. These tactics and policies have existed for decades.

I don't defend Donald Trump's response to coronavirus, a virus which incidentally killed two and a half million people in total, not two hundred million in America. I couldn't care less about Donald Trump. The only positive I take from his leadership is that he moved the Overton window. However, if we must place blame, then the Communist government of China, which suppressed knowledge of coronavirus for months, should bear the lion's share of it. We should trace this pandemic back to its source. My point was clear: the ideas and tactics I raised are features of the hard right and hard left.

SandraLY57: great another dork from England who knows it all

MaIvado:
Adamsouthworth,

You have made some slightly incorrect points:


1) You equate the far-left with fascism.

While the word fascism/fascist gets tossed around a lot, it is important to not mix your terms as the premise of your argument will be and is screwed. There may not be a fix definition but we can look at the common elements.

2) You have placed Mussolini as an example of the far-left equating to fascism. It seems that you mixed yourself up as you admitted he was not longer a socialist when he switched to Fascism. Fair enough to place his Fascist period in the far-right category then based on the following?:

“Benito Mussolini, an Italian World War I veteran breaks with the Italian Socialists and establishes the nationalist Fasci di Combattimento... Mussolini’s new right-wing organization advocated Italian nationalism, had black shirts for uniforms, and launched a program of terrorism and intimidation against its leftist opponents” [1]

I also think you might already know he REJECTS Marxism, liberalism and democracy and heavily promoted against it.

I can go through the rest of the names threw forward but that will be pointless.
To state that the far-left equates Fascism is erroneous.

It is more than dictatorship, it’s more than authoritarianism.

There are some agreed features of fascism:

Elements for example of racial superiority & racial purity. [example Hitler with the ‘Aryan race’, and Mussolini with ‘National purity’] Excluding others.


References
[1] https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/mussolini-founds-the-fascist-party

Some good readings:
https://theconversation.com/what-is-fascism-153947

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/19/17847110/how-fascism-works-donald-trump-jason-stanley

MaIvado:
The topic here has nothing to do with the Corona virus and government responses to it. That’s moving the goal post.

The point is that the far-right poses the main threat in some countries. Trump gets called in due to his stirring them up and the growth of these far-right groups under his watch. It is not a ‘Trump obsession’, merely an observation.

Admittedly, you’ve said a lot without making much sense. The protests done in the US last year was not a far-left over-throw. Those persons were protesting due to systematic racism. What took place in the US Capitol however was fully political and a social issue.

murrayduan:
adamsouthworth: It is in no sense an oxymoron to equate the far-left with support of a powerful state, coercive social engineering, a highly regulated economy and violent suppression of opposition."

Any honest person could explain what he is implying. Throwing out words means nothing.
Giving examples is explaining where and how one came to these conclusions.

There is no evidence of how many deaths are associated to the BLM protests last year and you are quoting unsubstantiated deaths many from the hard right Terrorist's groups.

Give us some examples of deaths by the BLM protestors. The BLM protests are a result of unnecessary murder of Blacks in America by the Police witnessed by Americans.

We had a couple of deaths in my State, they were committed by a relative of the Police and a right wing group.

Your rambling about freedom of speech and hate speech and China is simply the ranting of one who thinks because he read about History he has this deep understanding of revolution and change.

That is no different then the MAGA people and White Supremist, who also ramble on about superiority and the mixing of cultures and immigrants a cause of our problems.

I guess in your mind you think it makes you seem informed and understanding or the world.

Well it isn't that complicated at all. Events happen that have been happening for too many years and it makes people angry and they protest, that is what we do in a free society.

It gives opportunity for some to unleash their sick vendettas and act out violently maybe blaming it on the BLM people they hate so much.

So it is great you read all the books about social uprising in the world but don't overthink this for more then what it is.

Thanks for the correction my post was to mean 200,000 more American deaths from Trumps incompetence.

As for Chinas blame you are missing key points about the virus.

We knew in America about the virus back in Nov. 2019.

"As far back as late November, U.S. intelligence officials were warning that a contagion was sweeping through China’s Wuhan region, changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population,"

We did nothing about it. It wasn't China and even after we knew we still would not stop travel between China and the USA.

The world is an open book and no one can cover up much of anything. In fact there is talk that the virus was being talked about before Nov. 2019 in inner circles.

Again you still have not provided one example of how the Left as you said:

"My point was clear: the ideas and tactics I raised are features of the hard right and hard left."

Nothing was even close to being clear.

lori100: the left protests were political...they were animals using an excuse to destroy businesses and cities..they love riots and looting...the dems love making all cities dem hellholes like chicago, ny, seattle, portland.......

murrayduan:
lori100: the left protests were political...they were animals using an excuse to destroy businesses and cities."

It doesn't take long for the real agenda of Racists to come to light. Sick damaged people can only hide it for so long. The ignorance eventually becomes transparent.

If as you claim they are animals why would,, they need an excuse?

This is the problem when damaged mentally ill Conservative's try to offer some perspective on events.

The damaged mental deficiencies prevent them from making a valid point.

The best part of your posts is they add credence to BLM and Liberal ideology.

How can anyone condemn what they tried to accomplish when people like you condemn the actions.

They had to have had a good reason to protest when sick people like yourself condemn them.

So keep posting it justifies the means.

Adam Southworth: @ Malvado

I don't "equate" fascism with socialism or Marxism. They're not identical. However, I don't think the line between fascism and socialism/Marxism is as clear as you claim. They hold a number of beliefs in common:

1) Collectivism. The fasces (from Latin fascis: bundle) was a symbol of fascism and left-wing movements. The French revolutionaries, for instance, adopted the fasces as a symbol of people's power. It bears comparison with the upraised fist of the labour movement, anarchists and trade unions in the early 20th century and later left-wing movements. Collectivism is a core doctrine of fascism and socialism/Marxism. The fascists simply frame their collectivist approach in terms of a national will, while the left more often frame it in terms of working class people (categories a collectivist would find hard to separate).

2) Revolutionary violence. Inevitable violent revolution is a cornerstone of orthodox Marxism/revolutionary socialist movements. While Mussolini left the Italian Socialist Party, he never broke with the revolutionary violence of Karl Marx, whom he described as "the magnificent philosopher of working class violence". One reason Mussolini became pro-war is because he came to agree with Marx that war would bring on the revolution.

3) Antisemitism. While not a core principle of left-wing politics, it is a common feature of the hard left. Marx himself wrote a paper on "The Jewish Question". He equates the religion of Judaism with finance and thought Judaism would have to be destroyed. This could have been written by any Nazi or degeneration theorist. You might say Marx and later Marxists/socialists who shared his views helped lay the foundations of the holocaust.

murrayduan:
adamsouthworth: @ Malvado
I don't "equate" fascism with socialism or Marxism. They're not identical."

Like Malvado said you do a lot of posting without saying much. It appears as a history lesson related to what?

I asked you to explain this post below and I am still waiting.

adamsouthworth: I agree with lori100, if a powerful state, coercive social engineering, a regulated economy and suppression of opposition constitutes fascism, then many of the radical left are fascists"

Explain how the left are Fascists, with examples.

Don't offer some reach by authors promoting their books or beliefs, we have a definition of Fascism:

"Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe"

How exactly is that related to as you claim, the far left?

MaIvado:
adamsouthworth. There is a very distinctive line between fascism and the far-left. The obscurity comes with fascism and the far-right. While the far-left has its authoritarianism, it is not very closely related to fascism. As explained earlier. I suggest once again to review the source information I left you.

I have read what you stated and it is very clear you are reaching at straws.

1) You boiled down to: The far-left is Fascist due to Collectivism. No source or reasoning on why collectivism is a factor. However, I’ll brush that aside. You acknowledged that there is a strong difference. Now let’s apply that to the far-right:

Fascism’s collectivism is on the criteria of race/purity (as mentioned in my post). The far-right is an exceptional example of a similar collectivism. One that is similarly on race & national purity.

2) We already acknowledged that Mussolini deserted the far-left. We already note he denounced the far-left.

3) Do proceed to quote verses from Marxist’s Zur Judenfrage that promotes the slaughter/ill-will or abuse of jews.

Note that he was writing it from an economic perspective and in response to essays that were written by other contemporaries. It is no secret that Marxism discourages all religion but the far-left specifically attacks the Jewish one. As do the examples of fascism in the Nazi Party and the Republic Fascist Party.


Even your points shows how closely connected the far-right is to Fascism.

MaIvado:
I don’t know what he’s trying to argue when it’s already established that the far-right is on the same spectrum as Fascism.

WHlSKY:
White Supremist extremism & far-right continue to top the home-terrorism in the US.

10 targetted in Baffalo US.

lori100: chris rock got a gun years ago, he said he doesnt fear whites, he fears blacks...-----US dept of justice----Today homicide is the leading cause of death among young Black men, . In about 80-90% of the cases, the Black victim was killed by another Black, and about 52% of the murder victims were acquainted with their assailant.

WHlSKY:
Funny that you quote a 1983 journal. That’s how far you had to dig.

The top homegrown terrorism in the US had white-supremist ideologies.

The lastest attack: 10 shot in Buffalo.

Yet you can’t bring yourself to comment on that. Does it bother you in some way? It is a sickening situation.

lori100: sad , like the racist black guy who killed 10 whites at the xmas parade...he was anti white, had statements of the same

WHlSKY:
It is no quiet little KKK meeting occurring anymore, there is a rise in the far-right and white supremacy. The facts are there.

lori100: the boy killed 2 whites in buffalo, he must hate whites too

lori100: I see you follow dem propaganda and hate speech...