heaven or hell.....what do you believe????? (Page 5)

deuce916: So you don't believe a book that your religion tells you to believe?

lori100: I don't have a religion, just general beliefs.

mirja: the bible is a book with bull...t and many other things..there is something for everyone..its not a book of holy persons its a book of humanity (charge me if im wrong)..cos in there already hell and heaven like we see today around us .(but i dont know much else to say)
one thing i know : we have the wisdom but we dont wanna use it..cos we so much like to kill and destroy..we are much more in favour of hell than heaven..) ... we have the knowledge and skill to built a rocket and go to the moon ..we have the skill to make an atomic bomb... but we dont know how to love. And dont ask me why cos i dont know..or maybe that is the meaning of life... to find out how to. ( for the other post it belongs but)

Zanjan: Yes, the Bible has stories of bulls in it........rather like the stock market, eh. However, the Bible is a HOLY (sacred) Book. History is a collection of biographies, both of saints and hellions.

Ghost: “God would know the outcome of Creation, would know what everybody would do at every point in time and space, before the actual act of creation took place.”

Yes, but that doesn’t mean humans know or need to know.

“Not liking what he saw he would have the power to ordain that creation took a different route”

That would be pointless. God may not like the way people learn but He likes that they CAN learn – He created them with that ability. Don’t you have kids? You know they’ll bring you grief sooner or later so why would anyone purposely have them?

There’s a huge difference between teaching and controlling others.

“Therefore the route it did take, the one we experience, must have been chosen by him.”

You’re getting closer. That’s the big picture, not a route. God leaves the ways we wish to learn up to us. The details are diverse but all human behaviour is restricted to patterns.

“He chose that Eve would be tempted, that the first couple would be forced out of Eden, that sin would come into the world.”

God knew in advance what early humans would do with their drumsticks, also knowing some would be better drummers than others. After all, He gave them their special talent. He knew some would use their gifts wisely, others wouldn’t. He doesn’t make our choice to fall prey to temptations or to deny them – we do.

Once patterns are recognized, it's easy to predict the most likely future choices.

While God knew man’s full potential, what did humans know? They knew they’d never find that out if they didn’t explore it.

“An alternative route for Creation would have seen her refuse temptation so there would have been no original sin, no expulsion from Eden etc.”

God thinks of everything the first time around so there are no 'alternatives'.

You see, every human is endowed with the ability to recognize God: thus, every human, including those who previously refused that recognition, will eventually return to God. This is inevitable so why fight it so hard?

On returning to God, our full potential is to reach the learning level where we sin no more. However, not every human will reach their full potential; some will be permanently crippled, yet they have their place too in the grand scheme of things.

deuce916: Zanjan, when are you going to learn that in heaven you're not going to need a mind because all you do is worship a deity all day, and all night. 24 hours a day, for eternity. Do you know what the word eternity means. It means forever dear. It surpasses day & night. You can't even imagine eternity because it's further than our minds can fathom.

Zanjan, you speak to your god apparently, but I like to think that you speak to your imagination.

deuce916: Zanjan, why does your god let babies die from abuse & starvation? Also, what do you look like in heaven? (if your body is still on the earth).

deuce916: Heaven & hell - delusional places.

deuce916: Zanjan, if the old & new testaments are the word of a sane god, then why do they contradict each other so much? For example, in the old testament it's an eye for an eye but in the new testament it's love your enemy. I tell you, you're god is a total lunatic for doing that. But it's nice to know that your god is not real & is not running life.

deuce916: Zanjan, what about mary the mother of god - you know, the catholic one? How can mary be the mother of god when god made her? It defies reality dear. & which god made her - god the father or god the son?

Zanjan: "when are you going to learn that in heaven you're not going to need a mind because all you do is worship a deity all day, and all night......"

You know this.....how? You've been to heaven? If so, apparently, you were in the same lot as those who couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time.

How do I know this? I've been there. Part of what makes it heaven is not having a physical body to drag along. Eternity, why should that be a problem? It doesn't matter how long it takes to do something, you speed freak - only that you do it.

"Zanjan, you speak to your god apparently,"

Actually, God speaks to me. Am I in His imagination?

God doesn't let babies die from abuse and starvation. He doesn't let adults die from abuse or starvation either. That's about human irresponsibility. Had the humans been been willing to be guided by God, they could have circumvented those problems. God doesn't do our learning for us so quit trying to pass the buck.

"what do you look like in heaven? (if your body is still on the earth)"

We remember our physical bodies – those memories are engraved in our minds so, no matter where we go, they project automatically. How do you recognize people here? There's several ways - by their physical features or hand or voice.

Now consider this: In the hereafter, all souls are unveiled. Truths are all made known. Every soul will see everyone as they truly are - virtues, rank and station. This goes for you too. You think you know yourself now but those things you can’t know for certain while you’re still living on this physical plane.

However, in Heaven, there is mutual love for the beauty seen in each other. Let’s hope you’re tending well the garden of your soul, that it may produce many fresh and lovely flowers.

Zanjan: " if the old & new testaments are the word of a sane god, then why do they contradict each other so much?"

First, the Old and New Testaments are not the Word of God, they're sacred religious books. Those Books contain the Word of God but Revelation makes up only a small percentage of the writings; the large percentage recounts the histories of men - these are two different things. What makes these writings Holy Books is that they're true.

There are no contradictions in the writings, only in the mind that doesn't understand.

"An eye for an eye" was a term used for equitable punishment for a wrong done. In modern terms, we say "make the punishment fit the crime" (this rarely happens though). The civilian order is punitive, not rehabilitative; whereas, the religion of God is reward- based, acting as a preventative.

If you love your brother, you wont wrong him, even if you're the court judge. Thus was the wisdom of Solomon; the Jews apparently had forgotten that by the time the New Testament arrived. So, God ramped it up a bit with the lesson of brotherly love, teaching humans that their enemy is their brother too.

Thus, love your enemy. God didn't say you had to "like" your enemy, just love them. This is about unconditional love. Eventually, you'll learn how your enemy can also be your helper so you'll actually enjoy having a few

I thank God that you're not running life either.

Well, at least we agree on one thing - Mary isn't the Mother of God, for the exact reason you stated. God is ONE and has always been pre-existent.

Mary was a human, the mother of Jesus, also a human. She never said she was anything else so why would others pretend to know more about her than she did??

Jesus was not God - He said very clearly that whatever He spoke, He had heard it from God. He personally claimed to be God's Messenger by divine appointment and anyone can read that right in the text. Those who have the audacity to defy that are suffering from cognitive dissonance.

deuce916: You're kidding Zanjan, what a load of s _ _ t. As usual your imagination has got the better of you.

Zanjan: "what a load of s _ _ t. "

Even the part where I agree with you?

deuce916: Yes, because you made up the answer.

XFixYourBrainX: I think it is what you believe it is based upon your conscious.

mirja: yea if it wasnt then it would not be called a belief and it could be explained to the brain

mirja: thats how it can seem when you put it as well as u can to be understood by human brain.. The feeling is just as well truth to someone who feels it even if it cannot be measured.

mirja: Some just live true more demensions in their life than others...

XFixYourBrainX: @freespirit

Your right, but I im sure most people know what the definition of a beliefe is. So what is your input on the subject of heaven and hell?

XFixYourBrainX: @freespirit

I am curious based upon history exactly when the very first idea of heaven and hell was thought of. In the Bible God said he created the heavens and the earth, etc. Maybe this was the first.

Zanjan: Though you've directed that to Freespirit, I'd like to address it as well.

"The heavens" has two basic meanings; "the earth" also has two basic meanings.

The Bible is chock full of metaphors because God simultaneously created a physical plane and a spiritual plane. These dimensions are different yet inseparable. All creation began as a single point, then the dimensions mushroomed out from there. So, no dimension is bad; "Earth" is the lower, simpler dimension.

We understand the physical best because 'substance' is our first introduction to life; it would be too difficult to learn about the truths of the spiritual realm unless we could make a comparison to something that's already familiar to us. Thus, the figure of speech has always been used to preface meaning in language ie: 'concrete' proof to produce an 'ironclad' case.

So, if you want to understand any scripture of the Faith of God, you'll have to approach it from that perspective......this is why spiritual language is flowery. Consider how much stuff there is to learn about the physical realm; well, the spiritual realm is much wider since it's the higher plane.

Freespirit, no doubt you've heard of the term 'seven heavens' or the 'seven celestial realms'. These mark stages of the development and progress of the soul. Obedience is a spiritual virtue; since the soul can't progress without learning it, it's not a word to be feared.

ghostgeek: I've read a chapter or two of Genesis and it seems to be saying that there's really no difference between man and God. Both are mortal. Not what I've been told. See for yourself.

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

If man has become like God, that means that God must be like man, ie. mortal. Man was expelled fom Eden because of God's fear that he would become immortal and therefore greater than God. Where, I wonder, will God go after he dies?