The 10 commandments, what would you alter?

orkanen:

1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.

There they stand. Seemingly good advice. What is missing, what is superfluous?

DawnGurl: 11. Thou shalt not shake a can of soda before opening it.

Aura: I'm reminded of an old joke, Moses comes down the mountain : "behold these 20 comma...*Crash* ....10, these ten commandments were bestowed on me by God"

orkanen: 13. Thou shalt not drink thy beer before providing thy generous offering to Orkanen. (-: o
My lucky number as well.

CoIin: Ladies and gentlemen, for your edification and entertainment, here are Bertrand Russell's "10 commandments"


"Perhaps the essence of the Liberal outlook could be summed up in a new decalogue, not intended to replace the old one but only to supplement it. The Ten Commandments that, as a teacher, I should wish to promulgate, might be set forth as follows: "

1.Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.

2.Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.

3.Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.

4.When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.

5.Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.

6.Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.

7.Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

8. Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent than in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter. .............

9.Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.

10.Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool’s paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness.

Geoff: 1. Don't be a dick.

I think that about wraps it up.

Geoff: And, traditionally, the eleventh commandment has always unofficially been, "Thou shalt not get caught."

Zanjan: Well, no one has said it yet but I think it's abominable that anyone would want to change the Ten Commandments. Why? I mean, unlike humans, God directs that which every human anywhere, anytime, is fully and easily capable of performing, without misunderstanding. There are no loopholes; that's why it's sacred.

Why not just add your own #11 - 21?

Orkanen's list has decent advice but unrealistic expectations. Whereas, Bertrand's litany of personal philosophies should be taken with a grain of Margareta salt, as with other coveting notables who are want to repeat their errors. Tsk~

A new Biblical translation has changed the 'Thou shalt not" to 'You must not'. MUST?? Like, there's some kinda choice in the matter? 'Shall' means WILL. and WILL NOT doesn't mean, oh, sweety, you just keep trying, you can do this thing once you get the hang of it.

#11. Thou shalt not walk on thin ice. THAT's a commandment. (are you listening, Bertrand?)

#12. Thou shalt not stick thy bare hand into a dog fight.

#13. Thou shalt not compete with anyone but thyself

#14. Thou shalt not show up at work 3 sheets to the wind

#15. Thou shalt not shout the word "bomb" or "fire" in vain

#16. Thou shalt not yak in the sink then walk away (Trolls, are you listening?)

Hopefully, you see that a Commandment means there's no escaping the consequences.

Geoff: Back in the days when I still gave much of a damn about such things, a man of the cloth did tell me that the OTs ten commandments were superseded by Jesus' two commandments:
1. Love god.
2. Love humanity.
(Yes, I am paraphrasing for brevity and clarity.)

Of the two, I do still try to follow one of them. Although the rest of humanity seems to be doing its damndest to make it hard.

Aura: Yeah I'm going with Pratchett: don't think of humans as things. The rest will sort itself out.

Zanjan: Geoff, a man of the cloth should know better - there's a difference between law and social guidance. Go ahead and tell somebody to love when they don't know how! Thank God we don't have clergy in my religion!

The Ten Commandments are for all people, not just members of a specific religion. Aside from the dynamics of *universal law*, one could choose to use it as a measuring stick for one's own self. For the confused and lost who don't know what's good or bad, this list defines the basics of morality in that good people WILL NOT do these things.

There are only 3 kinds of people - the good, the bad, and those who are neither.

CoIin: @ - "The Ten Commandments are for all people, not just members of a specific religion. Aside from the dynamics of *universal law*, one could choose to use it as a measuring stick for one's own self. For the confused and lost who don't know what's good or bad, this list defines the basics of morality in that good people WILL NOT do these things."

Zanjan is arguing in a circle again. She makes it sound as if they ( the "good people" ) have a choice.

"Good people WILL NOT do these things" because, in virtue of the way you've defined it, they CANNOT do these things. It's a logical impossibility. If they broke a commandment, they wouldn't be "good". Anyone who breaks a commandment is thereby "bad" by your definition.

Good people don't break commandments. And how do you know if you're good? Why, you don't break commandments, of course. In other words, people who don't break commandments don't break commandments.

Or look at it this way...

A: Some of the people I meet don't know if they're stupid or smart, so I help sort them out.
B: Oh, how do you do that?
A; I give them all an IQ test. The ones that score over 100 are deemed smart. The others are deemed stupid.
B: Hmm, I see. Has a stupid person ever passed?

Geoff: Since the first of those laws are "Thou shalt have no gods but me." I am glad that I don't have a religion.

That sort of psychological bullying is normally found in abusive relationships.

Zanjan: Colin: "She makes it sound as if they ( the "good people" ) have a choice".

No I don't......either you have a waxy or 2 left s. I've illustrated in the previous post how and why there there is no escaping the repercussions of breaking those laws. The way I defined it is by virtue of the word "Shalt" - they WILL NOT. There is no translation to 'cannot'.

" If they broke a commandment, they wouldn't be "good"."

Well

Obviously, their WILL is too limp-wristed for their name to be written in the Book.

"And how do you know if you're good?"

God tells me. Now, don't go gittin' yer nose out of joint when He doesn't 'talk' to you!

" I give them all an IQ test."

The smart ones know the IQ test can't measure true intelligence. How sad you'd have to resort to such a crude method of determining intellectual competence!

Geoff; "That sort of psychological bullying is normally found in abusive relationships."

In that case, you may change your wedding vows to "...you may cheat on me".

Geoff: Wedding vows are (at least in modern western society) freely entered into by both parties. They are (supposed to be, at least) a mutual expression of love and commitment.

The old testament commandments are are not freely entered into, they are the words of (if the rest of the old testament is anything to go by) a monstrous father figure looming out of prehistory shouting, "Do as you are told, or I am going to spank you!"

CoIin: Well, Zanjan has missed the point once again and replied with more irrelevance (what have "repercussions" to do with anything? ). I'm never quite sure if this is due to ineptitude or just a desperate face-saving measure.

Let's examine the key paragraph again...

"The Ten Commandments are for all people, not just members of a specific religion. Aside from the dynamics of *universal law*, one could choose to use it as a measuring stick for one's own self. For the confused and lost who don't know what's good or bad, this list defines the basics of morality in that good people WILL NOT do these things."

What's happening here then? First, Zanjan gives us an "operational definition" of morality.

An operational definition is when a property is defined simply by the method in which it is measured. Eg. Consider a psychological test for depression. If you answer a certain number of questions in the affirmative, you are "depressed" BY DEFINITION. Therefore, it is logically impossible for a depressed person to "pass" the test. To be "depressed" JUST IS to "fail" the test.

According to Zanjan's definition, the Commandments are our measuring stick - those who obey the Commandments are "good" and those who don't are "bad". You may not like this definition (I certainly don't), but that needn't worry us here. Let's just look at the consequences of her own definition.

Substituting "people who don't break the Commandments" for "good people" and "break the Commandments" for "do these things", we can rewrite:-

"... this list defines the basics of morality in that good people WILL NOT do these things."

as

"... this list defines the basics of morality in that people who don't break the Commandments WILL NOT break the Commandments."

Zanjan presented her statements as a lesson in morality. It is nothing of the kind. It is, in fact, what Kant would describe as a "miserable tautology" of the form:-

2 = 2
good = good or
=

I rest my case and will not clutter the thread with this any more. Zanjan will doubtless respond with more incoherent drivel, but I'll leave the other posters to reach their own conclusions. Getting the last post in doesn't entail that you're right.

Zanjan: Geoff: " father figure looming out of prehistory shouting, "Do as you are told, or I am going to spank you!" "

Damn right! If you wont' learn the meaning of obedience and respect, then you deserve it.

Geoff: But, a god that commands genocide, child abuse, the degradation of women does not necessary command respect.

And quite frankly if the bible is true; then it's talking about a god I don't want to worship.

//Edit - correction of a typo

budwiser: A steadily growing number of people seem to share your opinion there, Geoff! This chick is no exception...

Zanjan: Colin “What's happening here then?”

I kinda figured you didn’t know, what with your penchant for turning the s head to eat its own tail.

Have you ever heard that you can’t serve two masters? There’s always somebody who imagines they’re the exception to the rule. I prefer to let them find out on their own, with a nice pat on the bum, saying ‘Go ahead, you do that’.

But for the sake of argument, let’s look at why you cant. In this world, we’re all servants to a higher power – you might be a sun-tanned slave in a cotton field or a well-dressed butler in a mansion; no matter, you’ve got an occupation and a boss.

On the north side of town is Master Bob; on the south side, is Master Vinny. You began your service with Bob; your job is to bring him a dinner bowl of ham soup for lunch each day. (you prepare it using his matchless family recipe) One afternoon, you happen to be chatting to Vinny’s servant, who says ‘If my Master were to taste this awesome soup you made, I guarantee he’d pay you 5 times more on the spot if he had it” You accept.

However, being greedy, you become the mercenary; running back and forth to bring soup to both masters is exhausting. Masters become annoyed because you’re late and the soup has been watered down so has lost its original savour.

Master Bob has been informed and sternly calls you to account, saying “You conniving, unfaithful little beast! That’s *my* soup – not yours! I supply all the ingredients from my fields, the kitchen and the heat…. yet you imagine you own these and can do whatever you please with them. Thief, you’re dismissed!

Now that you’ve been let go, you’ve got some spainin’ to do – Vinny doesn’t have any of the ingredients or even a kitchen - just fire. Vinny says “Guess you’re stuck with me. Well, guys like you are a dime a dozen so that’s what your wage will be. Here’s the soup spoon- Hannibal has 12 elephants out back – go scoop

Zanjan: Geoff: " then it talking about a god I don't want to worship."

That was Baal, the Carthaginian god. The true God fried his bull.

Aura: No. You can't have it both ways. Either there is one god, the one and only and he goes by many names, or there are a lot of gods and you may claim one of them is the best but then he isn't the only god.

Zanjan: Yeah, and then everybody is arguing over whose god is better. There's no order.

Today, religious people aren't actually arguing over who's religion is better anymore, mostly because they have to admit to the same bloody past. Amazingly, most are beginning to understand exactly why they're in the religion they've chosen for themselves. They realize this is a more important and worthwhile contemplation than trying to figure out why somebody else chose differently.

By the way, a "bull" is an edict of law; the Carthaginians did a lot of bull-leaping in those days.

And Colin? Keep your day job. There's no need for a psychological test for depression.......usually the sadness and constant crying is a dead giveaway. For the psychologically repressive, their body screams back until it gets sick. Aint rocket science.

Well, not everything is meant to be healed instantly. Poets and writers have personally told me they did their best and most glorious work when they were depressed or randy.

Guess I'll just have to take their word for it. For what it's worth, I think it's cool when they kill two birds with one stone.

Geoff: Actually, crying is not a universal symptom of depression. It all depends on the sufferer, some cry, some are quiet, some get angry, and some go to great lengths to disguise their depression from everyone, including themselves. This last group tend to manifest their depression in ways that can often be described as hedonistic.

Sometimes it is only with long consultation with a trained counsellor that the root cause can be properly identified.