Wake up you morons! (Page 3)
Geoff: I have a similar radar that alerts me to people who are deluding themselves.
Sometimes, compassion makes me try to help them. Sometimes self-preservation makes me run. And sometimes I just can't help but laugh.
Zanjan: I don't try to fix deluded people - it's their punishment for ignoring God's guidance. Who am I to hand them the keys to their jail cell?
No, I'm here for the innocent ignorant and naturally dim-witted. They could use a leg up over the wall. So what if they hit the ground hard on the other side? I did my part...the rest is up to them.
LiptonCambell: >>> it's their punishment for ignoring God's guidance.
you're misusing the word 'guidance'. It doesn't mean what you think it means. The dictionary people have been manipulating you into thinking you know the meaning- its all part of their agenda, and you're just playing into their hands..
Geoff: Or is perhaps the punishment for being genuinely confused about /which/ god's guidance to follow?
Amusing... Do carry on! Especially Zee, she is really funny and deluded. Did I use the rite wirds?
Zanjan: Geoff, God is a very patient Being.....but even HE has a line you don't cross. There's a point where disrespect lands one in the doghouse, you know?
For thousands of years, God has educated all mankind that there is only ONE GOD - there is no other, and it is HE, the Creator Who rules all the worlds - not us. There's no person who has never heard of this - He makes sure of that. Ergo, there's no excuse for worshiping a multitude of gods or a false god anymore. The warnings on that issue have run out.
God doesn't judge a person on their level of understanding, but on their effort and motivations.
Geoff: Most gods have said that they are the only one.
If you are going to take the word of some miserly old buggers who use mystical balderdash to trade for temporal power, then you will end up believing all sorts of crap.
Zanjan: David, one doesn't normally assign intelligence to an inanimate object or a bald-faced liar.
Neither can one cant label God as a creature either since He's the One Who created all. That leaves us with an intelligent, pre-existent Being, the like of which no man can comprehend as an equal.
Some Buddhists believe there is an Ultimate Reality (not a deity).....as if any human could see that! Who has an all-encompassing eye and perfect intelligence that they could grasp such a thing?? And how would they describe that to another human, who has a finite mind?
Geoff, yeah - what sort of person would desire or need something so cumbersome and fleeting as temporal power? Can't take that with ya. I suppose Elvis is happy - one doesn't forget how to sing.
By using the word being, 'it' had a beginning, was created from something and is conscious.
God can not be a 'being'.
chronology: Sigmund Freud made the comment that; 'people cannot make rational decisions about the important decisions in life, so long as they are doing so basing those decisions on the fantasy that 'God' exists'. Other influential thinkers in history say there is such a dimension as the 'Spirit World' and any normal person cannot leave this major aspect of Mankind's experience out of any considerations of life. We just have to weigh the facts ourselves and decide what we believe, and respect other peoples decisions.
Zanjan: " We just have to weigh the facts ourselves and decide what we believe,"
You'd need a weigh scale for that, wouldn't you? By what standard do we lend importance to anything, and by what measure will we frame the volume of that impact in our lives and the lives of others?
The first thing we need to do is look to the source - strip the fame from the name and look again. You see, when I say something wise and clever, nobody writes it down. But oh, when somebody famous says it, well, it's gotta be an original stroke from a god-like mind! Riiight.
Sigmund Freud: why on earth would you want to hold to something he said? Have you looked at his activities in his private life, and how his motivations spread into and poisoned his professional life? That should be the first indication this guy knowingly made poor choices - not honest, not respectful of the trust others put in him etc - you'd think a man of his intelligence would know how to use it! Rebellion doesn't make for originality.
On the other hand, one could look at something Muhammad said - His character and clarity of vision was flawless. What was His secret?
He said "God does not guide the wrong-doer"
Well, I've seen this truth of my own accord so, I approve of that statement. Freud's attitude in life was one of defiance.....that was the "cloud", blocking his vision.
LiptonCambell: >>> By what standard do we lend importance to anything, and by what measure will we frame the volume of that impact in our lives and the lives of others?
I love how you ask questions, but don't answer them. What makes the Quran or the Bible a valid source of information at all?
>>> His character and clarity of vision was flawless.
Muhammad's character was flawless? Didn't he marry, like, a dozen different woman? Didn't he marry a 6 year old when he was 53?
chronology: Zanjan, Dr Freud is one of the many Jewish people that we in the West owe so much to. After helping many desperate and confused and helpless people, he was forced to leave mainland Europe and live in England, one of the many Jewish people who have been persecuted for no reason other than their race. You say Muhammad should be our guide, and your reasons we should do this? We can see that the work of Albert Einstein may have some flaws, but his basic principles are still found to be well established. Sigmund Freud is the same, maybe some of his opinions about God or sex can be challenged, but his overall description of the unconscious is still accepted by many people. Freud's most powerful contribution to understanding religion is his observation that most religious people are performing 'Obsessive Compulsive' actions over and over each day. He is most remembered for his comments about religious addicts craving a father figure, but the addiction most religious people have is their compulsion to repeat rituals again and again, some people wash their hands over and over, others have to read their horoscope every day, others have to wear some kind of symbol, others have to dress in a certain way, others need to have a certain day each week. and on and on. Often some ritual has to be followed by another, and then another. Many Flying Saucer Cults have adopted practically all the rituals of Religion with a few changes thrown in. Out of respect for Wireclub Rules I will not be specific in my descriptions.
Geoff: Yeah...marrying a nine year old...
Pun intended, even if it not actually got.
Zanjan: Lipton: "I love how you ask questions, but don't answer them."
They're supposed to make others think, not me.
If you're not using scriptures as a moral foundation or guide, then what are you using for a rule of thumb? Whose character to do set before you as exemplary? Who are your heros?
Chronology: " Didn't he marry, like, a dozen different woman? Didn't he marry a 6 year old when he was 53? "
No, he didn't. Nor did He ever utter a false accusation or malign an innocent person (hint, hint) - that's what made Him a great statesmen, like Moses.
"Dr Freud is one of the many Jewish people"
Blood inheritance doesn't make one a God believer. We owe him nothing, in my opinion - he was a neurotic and left nothing of value behind.
"You say Muhammad should be our guide"
Please don't misquote me. I used Him as an example of excellent character - scriptures should be one's guide - those are the Word of God. God is the guide, and history is the proof of those working principles. Muhammad was a man.
Talk about not answering questions - what do you use as your moral guide? We already know who your hero is.
LiptonCambell: >>>They're supposed to make others think, not me.
Are you sure you don't need to start thinking?
>>>then what are you using for a rule of thumb?
Treat others as you would like to be treated. Works well for me.
>>>Whose character to do set before you as exemplary? Who are your heros?
>>>No, he didn't.
Are you sure?
"Muhammad's wives were the eleven or thirteen women married to the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Muslims refer to them as Mothers of the Believers "
"Muhammad married 15 women and consummated his marriages with 13. (al-Tabari vol.9 p.126-127)
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." - Sahih Bukhari 1:5:268 "
Zanjan: "Treat others as you would like to be treated"
That's in scriptures. So, you like to be personally insulted, do you?
Nobody has any idea who Muhammad consummated His marriage with, except those who gave birth to His children. Nobody was looking and He didn't tell anyone. Official history confirms one daughter by his first wife; Muslims are at odds about other children as there is no verification, other than Fatima.
Get your mind out of the gutter - Muhammad had only one wife until she died; whereas many men had hundreds of wives at the time. Different age and culture than ours.
He married widows to give them financial support and protection since they depended on men for their livelihood - most men only wanted to marry young virgins so a widow had little chance of surviving without support. The other reason was to cement political ties; like all kings have done, that prevented war.
Your references are gleaned from gossip - gossip is evil; I have nothing to do with that.
chronology: Zanjan. Frankly am having trouble answering your questions as you misquote me and ascribe Posts to me I have never made, as any brief glance at this Thread will show.
You say Dr Freud left nothing of value behind, well in understanding religious people, am sure any psychologists would disagree with you. His discovery that religious people are carrying within themselves a feeling of guilt which developed in childhood, and that they for the rest of their lives simply repeat rituals and practices to sooth that guilt feeling added much to what some find the inexplicable habits of religious people. Again, I do not wish to get too specific here as I respect wireclub rules about not offending people, but the constant weekly repetition of religious services and prayers gives 'believers' a kind of tranquilizer that sooths their anxiety. Beads, flowers and 'venerated objects' also sooth the deep guilt feelings of believers. Singing and chanting in groups relieve the guilt and fear as well. Some believers have no idea they even have guilt and anxiety complexes which propel them to constantly repeat their prayers and rituals. That singing sooths the distressed is well known, some times as ships sink, dieing passengers sing their religious songs as they die, the basic form of singing is 'screaming'.
Am I saying all religious people are guilt ridden inadequates? no, that would be inaccurate. Some are respectable professional people who simply like to 'keep up appearances' and visit their religious place each week.
ms bossypants: Sigmund Freud: why on earth would you want to hold to something he said? Have you looked at his activities in his private life, and how his motivations spread into and poisoned his professional life? - Zanjan
Your references are gleaned from gossip - gossip is evil; I have nothing to do with that. - Zanjan
A clear contradiction I would say.
Sorry Outbackjack, had to thread crap
LiptonCambell: >>>That's in scriptures
So? Theres also advice on how to treat your slaves in scripture- i base my judgements on good ideas, rather than blindly concluding that everything in a book must be true because someone said god inspired it.
>>>So, you like to be personally insulted, do you?
Lol i'm sure alot of people personally insult you by the mere fact that they hold their own opinions. Theres not much purpose in avoiding "personally insulting" you- because the effort is a grave insult to myself and others.
>>>Nobody has any idea who Muhammad consummated His marriage with, except those who gave birth to His children.
I included quotes from the book of al-Tabari vol.9 and Sahih Bukhari. Are you suggesting we can ignore scripture if we don't like it?
>>>. Official history
What, exactly, is "Official History"? "Official History" of Jesus states he married a prostitute, but that's not what the scripture says. Equally, the scripture says Muhammad had multiple wives.
>>>Muslims are at odds about other children as there is no verification
You never said that. You didn't say that thats up for debate- you said he absolutely did not have multiple wives
>>>Get your mind out of the gutter - Muhammad had only one wife until she died; whereas many men had hundreds of wives at the time. Different age and culture than ours.
Couldn't the same be said about Freud, or multiple other people? If you want to discuss the "character" of people, why can anything Muhammad did completely discounted by the creed of "different culture and age"? Shouldn't he be accountable for his actions just like anyone else? If we are to model our lives after Muhammad as our hero, doesn't that mean that we should marry 6 year olds when we're in our 50's? Otherwise, how could we take ANY advice from Muhammad? If we can pick and choose what scriptures are important, and which should be ignored, then all bets are off....
>>>He married widows to give them financial support
I never said anything otherwise
Wait, so he did have multiples wives after all?
Which is it?
>>>Your references are gleaned from gossip -
And yours are utter nonsense. One minute, he has only one wife- the next, he has multiple wives.