What is a Christian?

TheDoctor394: This is a continuation of where the conversation was going in another Religion thread. :-) My argument is that, historically speaking, a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their Saviour, as well as divine, as the early church believed this, and received the label "Christian" at that time, which stuck. But the term has become very loose nowadays, where it can be used for virtually anyone who just follows Jesus' teachings, or is a "good" person which, to me, makes the term almost meaningless.

TheDoctor394: Just moving the conversation from the other thread into this one...

near50ohoh said: u at least get the last sentence don't u? the congregation is the church, the brothers and sisters, not the rules. that is relevant to religion controlling us. i didn't say anything that complex or difficult. are you avoiding my argument?

The Doctor said: No, I'm not trying to avoid anything. :-| I'm honestly having trouble trying to follow your writing.
Yes, the congregation is the church, but which congregation? I don't see what that has to do with the point. The Christian congregation is the church, but that doesn't change what "Christian" means.

oh_good_laughs: hm, perhaps it has always been loosely used. Followers would witness a miracle by Jesus, go home, wait awhile, and slowly lose the devotion. Everything would go back to normal after that splash, but if asked - yes i believe.

I see what you're saying though, people kind of mold their own definition of what a Christian means, and select minimal verses pertaining Jesus to follow. Tricky, tricky.

near50ohoh: i'll try again, the gnostics are christians, amongst the earliest, and excluding them just on your principle that it must be as earlier divided demeans those who have been persecuted and died for that very faith and it's freedom. i think it's extremely relevant to control. what are you willing to do for your faith and it's martyrs? and how about serious efforts at reconciliation? or is that not important to you? is being right more important than being a christian by the way you live your life rather than the words that come out of your mouth? did those martyrs die for nothing?

TheDoctor394: Alright, Near, I'd just like to ask one question for the moment, and I'm sorry if you've already answered this, and I missed it. In what way were the gnostics Christians?

near50ohoh: quote from front of gnostic bible intro -pg 2 2nd paragraph - not my words direct quote-
"the historical roots of the gnostics reach back into the time of the greeks, romans, and second temple jews. some gnostics were jewish, others greco- roman, and many were christian."

TheDoctor394: Yes, but what made them Christian? To my understanding, "gnosticism" is a very broad term, and can cover a lot of spiritual views. It's even been suggested that it was around before Christianity itself. If a gnostic accepts Christ as God and Saviour as part of their belief system, then yes, they would be Christian, but not because of the gnosticism itself.

near50ohoh: i would caution you though, since there are many christians in the christian church, through it's many sects (so many) who go to church for purposes other than belief. or live dual lives, one way sunday morning and through the week are disobedient to JC's teachings. i would argue a true believer is better than a butt in the pew any day. and i can pull out a quote, but i'm not one of the gnostics. though i have much sympathy for them, due to common history of persecution. i would suggest you ask them. i think we are better served by looking at commonalities in faith among those who live by their beliefs than being focused on a definition or a rule. as i said before, and i mean it deeply, there are many pews in my temple and i cannot fill them alone. by the way, catholic is a broad term also by it's own definition. and protestant means to disagree only , does it not? there are many things that define christianity and JC being a deity is one of them only. your thread asks for the definition of christianity, not if JC is a deity. i wonder if you would be allowed to post that question, which to you seems rhetorical. not all christians see it your way though, as i pointed out, but you refuse to consider. why ask a question unless you are willing to hear other people's points of view? this is not bible study where all must agree to be a member. it's an international, multi faith forum .

TheDoctor394: Of course I'm happy to hear other people's point of view. :-| When did I say otherwise?
But your arguments are going in circle. You say not all Christians see things my way. But I'm saying that there are certain things that define a Christian, certain beliefs that are clear in the Bible, and have been followed by the mainstream church search since its inception, such as the divinity of Christ. To say "not all Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus" is a misnomer, since such a belief is one of the core Christian teachings. You would be better saying "not all Biblical scholars belief in Christ's divinity" or "not all church goers believe in it".
But you seem to now agree with that anyway - you've now said "there are many things which definte Christianity and Jesus Christ being a deity is one of them only", which is certainly true. So you then agree that Christ's deity is a core Christian teaching?

Zanjan: Doctor: " a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their Saviour, as well as divine,"

I've always believed in Jesus Christ but I'm not and never have been a Christian. A friend of mine used to be a Christian minister, pastor of a church in Ireland for many years. Although he switched religions, he didn't have to leave his faith behind in the process - he still believes.

I think to be a Christian has to be more involved than that; after a formal declaration, documenting one's membership in a church, God requires something from His servants - that is, to reflect that divine light from their soul, serving it faithfully in every action. This should be easily detectable, even by non-believers.

Some say as long as you believe, then you're saved. What nonsense! Belief isn't enough.

Near: "i think it's extremely relevant to control. what are you willing to do for your faith and it's martyrs? "

I'm betting its the same thing you're willing to do for your own family and all of your relatives. But no one knows for certain until the TESTS come. That will show you up.

The station of Christ is clear in the Bible - so clear that many Christians disagree on the obvious. One of the reasons for that is they insist you use *their* words - not the words of Jesus. Jesus never said He was divine, He never used that word to describe Himself. He didn't even describe Himself as 'good'.

However, He did say Who He was - the Son of Man. Those people were unable to comprehend that station; it was only necessary to recognize and accept that it was far above their own, and without fault. All Christians can agree on this; that would make them better Christians because Jesus loved unity. When they do not agree, they've put their own will ahead of God's - that's how they came to be divided.

Surely this saddened Jesus, since He knew full well it would happen. Despite His great love for them, sometimes, love isn't enough.

near50ohoh: doctor- the larger part of that particular statement is that there are many things that define who and what a christian is. add; to you JC is a deity. i thought i'd repeatedly and clearly stated that.
zanjan- we started this discussion on another thread, you're coming in in the middle. the one about religion and control. gnostics call themselves christians and believe JC was a sage etc.

to both of you JC considered himself to be a jew and so did most of his disciples. in matthew he clearly was quoted as saying that he came only for the jews. he said the jews were God's chosen people.

i've read the dead sea and naj hammadi scrolls and that position is more clearly and definitively stated there. differences in rites, names and practices have implode the christian church and now is the time for reconciliation before it's wiped off the face of this earth. ( i have several members of my extended family who are clergy as well and i've taken a few religion courses myself. so i don't back down easily)

Zanjan: Near, I didn't enter in the middle - I've been following the whole conversation you speak of in that other thread. I posted there as well.

JC never said He was a Jew. The rest of us decided He was one - not only because that's the civilization He was born into but because He truly believed in Moses. Well, so do I but I'm not and never have been a Jew.

Please provide a citation - Moses came for the Jews (the people of Israel). On the other hand, Jesus came for anyone who would recognize Him, Jews and Gentiles alike.

All who have recognized any of God's Messengers are God's chosen people - to prove that He's selected them, He has given them the Holy Land.... that history, no one can deny. I prefer to go with the facts.

What I've said here, is that if Christian core values were the same, so would be their core beliefs. History shows those don't match up, else they wouldn't have been divided. If any people, anywhere, value a single attribute of God, they would all be united on that one attribute because they'd all understand it.

I value the Oneness of God and believe in His unity; therefore, I see and value all things that are the same in every one of His religions. In this, I'm united with them. The rest isn't worth a hill o beans.

I agree with you that now is the time for the reconciliation of the church - this is the day that those who are watching them will not accept lip service. Christians can't teach unity if they cant do it themselves..........but that's ok, I can teach them

Zanjan: So, instead of attempting to define what a Christian is, I propose we discuss this:

What does it mean to be a Christian?

Zanjan: Now, why would people be so interested in a buncha radically dead beliefs?

near50ohoh: it's not dead. i know of a fairly close to me chapter. the statement i quoted was from matthew about JC zanjan. rederella i quoted directly from the gnostic bible intro. so if i was wrong so are they. i'm sure i prefaced it with the fact i'm not gnostic but have sympathy for how they have been persecuted. my own church of rearing, the mennonites were also.some eg's are the whole reformation thing, and were tossed out of russia, as well as having issues in USA with pacifism and military service. won't elaborate further here. not the place. but you may know already.

near50ohoh: i like that in the gnostic version we hear from the woman (mary) and the doubter (thomas).. reading the dead sea and naj hammadi scrolls opened my eyes in a new way to what christianity was. the doctor's question, but he discounts seekers wanting wisdom as not christian so...what more can you say?

TheDoctor394: Alright... this has moved on quite a bit. But no apologies necessary, Heretix. :-) That's the nature of message boards.
I obviously can't address everything that's been said since my last post, but I will refer to a couple.

First of all, Near, you say: "he (The Doctor) discounts seekers wanting wisdom as not christian". In itself, I obviously do. Are you saying anyone who seeks wisdom is a Christian?? That could include anyone from Buddhists to Atheists, making the term virtually meaningless.
I would also like to ask for your citation that Jesus said He only came for the Jews. You've said it's in Matthew, but where in Matthew? I can't think of any reference that has Jesus saying that.

And Zanjan... You say Jesus never said He was a Jew. No, I don't suppose He ever did, but He obviously was one. I'm not sure what you're trying to say there?

near50ohoh: sorry i don't have a reverse directory on chapter and verse. help yourself. and if we can't at least consider that christians might follow christian teachings vs buddhist or atheist then. .. most people look for wisdom where they think they're likely to find it.. ie) i don't go to google earth if i want to track a comet or chart the size of a black hole. i wonder sometimes if you pretend to misunderstand me to demean me?..to diminish the possibility that my argument is valid and should be considered?

TheDoctor394: Near, please stop saying I'm avoiding your questions or pretending to misunderstand you. :-/ I do not treat people that way, as some other regulars to this site will attest to. I'm honestly getting confused by the way you write. If it's my fault, and I'm just not able to read you as well as I should, I apologise. But I certainly am trying.

And I'm falling short again - you say, "and if we can't at least consider that christians might follow christian teachings vs buddhist or atheist then. ..most people look for wisdom where they think they're likely to find it.. ie) i don't go to google earth if i want to track a comet or chart the size of a black hole."
I've read this through about six times, and I cannot work out what you're trying to say there. :-|

And in regards to the reference of Jesus saying He only came from the Jews, I can't really help myself, since there is no record in any of the Gospels of Him ever having said that.

Emmet2Tim2_7: Hahaha........anyone who has a jewish mother ,technically, is a jew.This shouldnt b debated.And Mary was....a what?....Jew

near50ohoh: matthew again. saw it myself. if i want directions, i ask the guy who seems to know the area. that's all. no hardship or subterranean message. really simple.maybe you're so used to inferred and mystical things, you don't get it when someone's speaking directly.and just giving examples.

TheDoctor394: Near, if you saw it yourself, where is it in Matthew??

near50ohoh: don't have a bible on me sorry. doctor i feel this mad urge to sing a childhood song i've been humming since we started this thread. i know you can't hear the gorgeous melody but maybe you know it?... we are one in the spirit we are one in the lord we are one in the spirit we are one in the lord and together we'll spread the news that God is in our land and they'll know we are christians by our love by our love and they'll know we are christians by our love. all praise to the father from whom all things come and all praise to the spirit who makes us one and together we'll spread the news that God is in our land and they'll know we are christians by our love by our love and they'll know we are christians by our love ... i don't like feeling this much tension with someone i should be agreeing with, so let's leave it at that, shall we? i've said all i wanted to say and chose not to repeat myself

Zanjan: Doctor: "You say Jesus never said He was a Jew. No, I don't suppose He ever did, but He obviously was one. I'm not sure what you're trying to say there?"

I'm trying to say several things -

#1. People shouldn't put words into Jesus's mouth - they should quote His exact words; it's very easy.

#2. Jesus never said He was a Jew because He didn't have to; no one questioned this at the time. Clearly, being a Jew was *not* His claim - no one should be making any claim for Him that He didn't make Himself.

#3. As a Divine Revelator (capacity of the Christ), Jesus lived and spoke the *Faith of God* - God doesn't belong to a religion. Surprised? The NT doesn't always indicate when Jesus was speaking as Jesus, the man, and when the Voice of God was spilling from His lips. As the Bible recounts the events of their lives, it shows Revelation isn't a constant - for both Moses and Jesus, there was a before and an after their moment of Revelation.

I don't believe Christians have ever fully understood the station of a Manifestation of God, and that relationship between the Revelator and God. They're One in Spirit...and that's as far as they got; however, it was good enough for the ancients.

Christians today have wider minds due to better education and more exposure to other religions. They ask a lot more questions, bigger questions, questions the ancients never asked. So, I think it's possible some could grasp that divine relationship better than the early believers, if they let go of the embellishments with which the ignorant and wayward have draped over God's story.