What is a Christian? (Page 2)

Relgan
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Zanjan... I'd like to ask... who are "the ancients" to whom you refer?
Relgan... I agree that the Gospels would not say exactly word for word what Jesus said. To start with, that is the nature of such documenting, and also, of course, we are reading English translations. But how can you then call it a flimsy foundation, if you are a Christian and, I assume, you have come to your faith based on the Bible telling us about what Jesus said ad did? And if the Gospels are flimsy, where are these genuine words of Jesus which can be found?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Doctor, the ancients are people from Ages long past, from one of mankind's earlier stages of development - the early Christians lived in the Iron Age. Their cultures, perspectives, and even fine motor skills were primitive by comparison.

That being the case, I think of Christianity as 'spirituality light", like low fat milk. Jesus said "I have more to tell but you can't bear it now" is an indication He knew they could only grasp knowledge in small bites. Christ was holding plenty back. I mean, look at Peter, he had to count the days of the week using pieces of a fish!

One step at a time is what this says to humanity - learn these simple lessons first, then we'll continue.

The moderns: Wherever that date begins could be food for another discussion; briefly, it belongs to this current time - that's TODAY, where many people want to get to the 'meat'. That's fine as long as one doesn't forget there will always be a need for some to start their spiritual journey with milk. I certainly did.

However, some of us will find this milk has been pasteurized to death so it's nutrition level is much poorer than it was when it was raw.







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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Alright... You say the moderns is today. How do you know it's today? Why wouldn't it be, for instance, in 100 years time?
And I need to ask... when did Peter count the days of the week using pieces of fish?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Traditionally, "moderns' have included all living generations. The maximum would be 3 generations before us + our own + 3 generations after our own = the total span of 7 generations, encompassing both familial and genetic connections which influence the tribe. That is, any decision made by a living person in this string, affects all within the web.

This New Age has moved so fast through technological advance and social change, I can see how see my own great grandmother lived in a completely different world. Yes, that would be a little more than a hundred years ago for me - not a world my own children could have imagined, much less my grandchildren.

"Today" is the current day of our own generation.



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Zanjan
Zanjan: As for Peter, I don't recall off hand if there is a Biblical quote expressly stating what I said. I've studied the culture and fishery business of ancient Israel to get a better understanding of those times and the way they did things, and how advanced was their education and tech. Math was very rudimentary at the time so visual methods were employed as was taught by their fathers.

Most of the Apostles were fishermen; that peaked my interest as to how Jesus came to focus on that profession and why He traveled with them, considering He was a carpenter, Himself. They were savvy businessmen selling a hot commodity to nearby countries so they were all multilingual, amongst other things.

For example, Jesus told them to cast their net on the other side of the boat, and He asked them to catch a fish with a coin in it's mouth - to them, these were miracles. But really they weren't. Today, science is well aware of the behavior of the species of fish in the area, as well as the geo-thermal nature of the water's currents, and why fish would gather at a certain spot at a certain time in the Sea of Galilee.

God knows all - He made that knowledge available to Jesus, Who taught them something new without going into a detailed explanation. It was enough that no one at that time could possibly have known what He knew - of course that would seem like a miracle! By the way, I'm not discounting the possible spiritual metaphors involved as well.

Incidentally, they employed various ways to catch fish - I find it fascinating they used the circular casting identical to the way N.American Indians did it. We don't know when they learned that amazing skill because Indians didn't count time - instead, they recorded things that happened in seasons.

The early followers of Christ couldn't write down everything Jesus did as it would fill volumes, and they didn't have the time or resources to do that, considering the situation. Yet scholars and scientists have learned many things from real evidence and accounts of others of the times.

I don't really judge Ages of History by technological advances. I mean, I'm always amazed learning how ancients made things, just from their natural environment, using flora, fauna, natural minerals & rocks and the elements - brilliant! They had green practices and everything was recyclable - generally, they left an almost zero carbon footprint, something that our modern knowledge is trying hard to achieve but failing.

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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Obviously, we have different interpretations on certain things, Zanjan. It's a bit unfair to say "most" of the disciples were fishermen (we are only certain about four - Peter, Andrew, James and John, while we can omit Matthew, who was a Tax Collector), and if catching the fish was not a miracle, why were the fishermen not able to do it until the particular time when Jesus told them to cast their nets? Jesus wasn't a fisherman. And how did they know that a particular fish they caught would have the coin in its mouth?

I admit I'm not following a lot of what you're saying. I agree that humanity grows in knowledge as time goes on, and will continue to grow, although incorrect knowledge sometimes comes about - it would be unfair to say that if everytime a piece of knowledge we have today disagrees that of the past, then that past knowledge must be wrong. Humanity is known for making mistakes.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Doctor, even when the knowledge is correct, people can screw it up. Interpretation is the deadliest thing one can do. During the bloodiest history of Christianity, the clergy had the correct knowledge....yet look what they did with it, Popes included. THAT was NOT a mistake - it was a grave and dastardly error on their part. (same thing happened to Islam so don't feel I'm singling any group out)

I don't think there's any danger you or I will deliberately use the sacred scriptures as a weapon of destruction or tool to meet our own materialistic ends. My point is no one can hope to properly understand those scriptures by lifting them out of the context of history, which includes all aspects of civilian and religious life, science and culture of the times.

The apostles who *weren't* fisherman: Mathew and Simon the Zealot - that's only 2; the occupation of the remaining 6 are unknown, although I'm betting Phillip was a fisherman too because he was a native of Bethsaida - a fishing village.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: Point: those who weren't fisherman left their former occupation when they met Jesus and they all went fishing, boating and traveling together. Throughout, the emphasis was on fishing - that can't be overlooked. Jesus CHOSE fishermen for a reason; and if you think carefully about the other two occupations, you'll see a link.

Out of the several fish that inhabit the Sea of Galilee, is one species that parents its hatchlings near the bottom; it gathers the eggs in its mouth to protect them - this isn't the only species of fish that does this, by the way. I cant remember if this is the male or not. Anyway, when the eggs hatch, they keep the young babies for a short time in their mouth. When its time for babes to be released, the parent scoops up pebbles into its mouth to make it so babes cant get back in.

There's no way anyone could have known the parenting habits of fish down that far, but Jesus knew.

People dropped coins in the water so these fish would scoop that up along with the pebbles...this isn't an uncommon event as often they've been caught with coins in their mouths. Notice that out of all the methods to catch fish, it's recorded they used a hook and line to catch that one.

One species of fish there is tropical; at one part of the sea, warm water springs flow down into the sea at a certain time of year (I forget which time) and the fish will gather there in a large shoal.

We agree, we're still learning; the undersea world is a largely unexplored frontier. Nevertheless, I'd say it's pretty hard to mistake what fish is swimming by and what they're doing when you're in a marine sub with floodlights and a video camera.

This has been a bit of a digression but sometimes one should stop and smell the flowers on the way.





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Zanjan
Zanjan: However one defines a Christian, it has to show how he/she stands apart from the rest of the human bunch, and that's got to involve more than acceptance of various traditional doctrines or the memorabilia they keep around the house; after all, this isn't about identification, it's about spiritual discernment, right?

I'd say a Christian is someone who holds to their Christian duty. Aside from coma or serious organic illness, the ability to perform that duty depends on how much one loves God, don't you agree? Christ described how a Christian should show their love so, it shouldn't be any mystery to us.

Doctor, are you familiar with the allegory of the spoons?



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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Sorry, I've been unable to post anything for the last 24 hours due to a mix up at this site.
No, I can't say I am familiar with the allegory of the spoons?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Well, you might enjoy it as it's reminiscent of something Jesus said - I think of it often, in terms of our collective duty:

Rabbi Haim of Romshishok was an itinerant preacher. He traveled from town to town delivering religious sermons that stressed the importance of respect for one’s fellow man. He often began his talks with the following story:

"I once ascended to the firmaments. I first went to see Hell and the sight was horrifying. Row after row of tables were laden with platters of sumptuous food, yet the people seated around the tables were pale and emaciated, moaning in hunger. As I came closer, I understood their predicament.

"Every person held a full spoon, but both arms were splinted with wooden slats so he could not bend either elbow to bring the food to his mouth. It broke my heart to hear the tortured groans of these poor people as they held their food so near but could not consume it.

"Next I went to visit Heaven. I was surprised to see the same setting I had witnessed in Hell – row after row of long tables laden with food. But in contrast to Hell, the people here in Heaven were sitting contentedly talking with each other, obviously sated from their sumptuous meal.

"As I came closer, I was amazed to discover that here, too, each person had his arms splinted on wooden slats that prevented him from bending his elbows. How, then, did they manage to eat?

"As I watched, a man picked up his spoon and dug it into the dish before him. Then he stretched across the table and fed the person across from him! The recipient of this kindness thanked him and returned the favor by leaning across the table to feed his benefactor.

I suddenly understood. Heaven and Hell offer the same circumstances and conditions. The critical difference is in the way the people treat each other.

I ran back to Hell to share this solution with the poor souls trapped there. I whispered in the ear of one starving man, "You do not have to go hungry. Use your spoon to feed your neighbor, and he will surely return the favor and feed you."

"'You expect me to feed the detestable man sitting across the table?' said the man angrily. 'I would rather starve than give him the pleasure of eating!'

"I then understood God’s wisdom in choosing who is worthy to go to Heaven and who deserves to go to Hell."









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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: :-) That's pretty good. Certainly, I can't go along with all its theology, but it's a pretty nice story all the same.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Well, I don't think of that analogy in terms of "respect" as the Rabbi does. Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him (this was three times); it wasn't a rhetorical question. He said, 'If you love me, feed my sheep".

So, I think of that story as what we all have to do to nurture our own souls. As we learn from others in religion, we can understand our own religion better.

My husband was baptized a Lutheran and was a real church-goer as he was bringing up his children, in his first marriage. However, he went through a couple of serious concussions which caused him some brain damage (mostly memory and hearing problems). That meant he had to take lower employment positions.. His religious wife walked out on him one day and ran off with someone else who had more money. That was the end of his participation in church.

When I met him, I saw "Christian" written all over his face, though he'd forgotten so much of the Bible. He still doesn't go to church and I don't know why, nor would I ever ask him - that's between him and God.

Despite his seeming 'ignorance' of Christianity, he's a dyed in the wool Christian if I ever saw one, so firm in his spiritual discernment. In his heart, he loves God and it shows in his principle; as a husband, he's guided by God so is a constant help to me. Therefore, I'm not concerned if he's interested in my own religion or not.

Nevertheless, I continue to remind him of the Bible stories, the history, and words of Jesus without sounding preachy. There are no books in the next world so my prayer is one day, he'll start reading them of his own accord.

As far as I'm concerned, his ex- wife wasn't a Christian, even when she went to church. Disaster has a way of sorting out the true colours.





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Intolerance
Intolerance: Belief in God and Jesus as his Son and your savior pure and simple. If you require more deeper thinking, join the catholic jesuits or something.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Deep thinking is a natural, unstoppable yearning to know. We don't have to be taught to do that, we just have to be ready. He who seeks shall find, knock and the door will be opened, right?

What I know is this: genuine love is unbounded, limitless - this is why you can love all your children equally, even if you have 20 of them. On top of that, you can also love relatives and friends, animals and plants, and still have room to widen that circle. You can pour it out on all of humanity because it issues from a bottomless fountain - its only name is 'unconditional love'.

Therefore, I say there's room in one's heart to love all the Prophets of God. No reason why one shouldn't. If one of them could save a soul, all of them could. However, that was not their responsibility - it's yours and yours alone. The Prophets of God came to teach *how* to love.

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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: since god gave us a mind and free will why not use them?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I have a theory about that: I think a huge mass of people have a great fear of the word "obedience". If they avoid it, they think they're free.

They don't realize that true freedom means you don't have to avoid anything, not even God.

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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: you're probably right, zanjan
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Toxilla
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Zanjan
Zanjan: You're describing *liberty* - that's not freedom. Liberty leads to chaos and pain.

True *Freedom* is release from the chains of 'Self' - Self binds one to their human limitations.
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macktown928
macktown928: A "christian" is a person from really any place such as from a "nation" , a "tribe" and all corners of the world, it is anyone that has faith to understand what the scriptures talk about and live by the values of the "LIFE STYLE" of what GOD ,and HIS SON "VALUE" out of any one that belives, "CHRISTIANS' in general are people who put themselves in situation declaring the "GOOD NEWS" to all sorts of peoples such as, people who don't believe anyhting, people who bilieve in something else, people who hate , people who who don't know scripture well ,or don't know at all, people who need love because they have non, A christian is a person that go's out of there "COMFORT ZONE" and tells a person the good news , weather the the circumstance are dangerous or safe, A christian is a person that has been granted HOLY SPIRIT , and is a person that prays for things to change weather it it something they where given or weather it harms them , A christian is a person that knows what his/her creator undestands the problems they go threw, A christian is a person that puts faith in JESUS, and hopes that he/she will be called after the RESURECTION to be saved , A christian is a person that belives with his/her own heart that the BIBLE is the TRUE WORD OF GOD.
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: pretty fascinating how reading the bible is required though since the church is built on the backs of those who were refused literacy so the priests could control the masses with misinformation. it was that way for much of the church's history and still exists.
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tropical
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shoreline
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