The worst educational levels in America stretch across the most religious section of the country. A coincidence? (Page 2)

davesdatahut: Here is a little something else to stir the soup, since it has been suggested that religion inculcates values in people as much, or more, than a secular education. This little tidbit has to do with "family values," or parents sticking together to raise children in the cohesive, traditional family unit so often espoused by our religions.
To wit...
The highest rates of single-parenthood are in the very same religion-heavy states of the South with low educational levels. According to census data, more than 35 percent of all families with children are headed by single parents in every southern state except Texas (probably due to the Hispanic presence). A couple of states have rates over 40 percent.
In other states, the percentage generally ranges from 25 to 35 percent. So much for religious values.
(For the record, there is one big exception: Utah, a very religious state, has the lowest level of single-parenthood - 23 percent.

near50ohoh: yes but isnt that still polygamous? how do you be single in that environment?!!

davesdatahut: Most of the Mormons, from what I understand, don't practice polygamy anymore because it's been outlawed by the state of Utah.

Zanjan: Shoreline: “Couples everywhere makes suicide pacts for a number of reasons”

The religion of God doesn’t permit suicide – it goes against all of it’s teachings, and everyone who’s religious knows it.

Near, I’m well aware of the Christian tenets. Thank God, my education and experience allows me to distinguish the difference between a religion, an ethnic settlement of people and a commune.

Mennonites don’t live in a commune………what they had in the past was a settlement, which used to be called a colony, in the colonial days. Then someone recently coined the foolish phrase “intentional communities”, as opposed to accidental, magical or random, of course. This is a reference to its ethnicity – race and nationality has nothing to do with Christianity and God knows what happened to word “exclusive”.

Menonites are a product of umpteen divisions of Christianity, re-splintered down through time – my favourite Menonite group out of that was the Funkites…

Anyway, as a foster child, I lived in a Menonite home – they dressed like anyone else but lived a Spartan life like all Mennonites. I still remember those miles of barren hardwood flooring and the echo in each room. I didn’t mind that, I just hated having the same meal every day – after that, my brother and I couldn’t eat macaroni for 30 years.

Yes, they have academic schools and a college, just like other Christians – they teach the same subjects as public schools and parents must pay tuition just like any other private school. They don’t have an alternate school system, just a different method of teaching.

*Religious* education is free, not secular education.

No one said schooling only came out of government programs. In Canada, Mennonite curriculum has to meet the standards of provincial government curriculum – that’s civil law, which has nothing to do with religion. Nothing wrong with having teachers who belong to their religion – they don’t want to introduce bad influence or ideas that don’t meet with their approval, since these are tender, impressionable young minds.

Whatever they believe in doesn’t matter much because it changes from congregation to congregation…..except they’ll always live barebones with no tech. Although I know a family that uses phones, there's a Mennonite group in S. America that forbids the use of motors and compressed air...........I'm sure there's some kind of reason for that.

Near, I asked you what your denomination is, not for your history. If you’ve left it behind, you have no right to call yourself a Mennonite unless you’ve converted to another Mennonite faction, obviously more liberal.

Dave, aren’t you lucky to have been brought up like that!! I had no religious upbringing to dump.

Zanjan: Daved, religion doesn't inculate a set of values - it teaches how to acquire spiritual virtues.

Nobody can learn a person - if they could, nobody would fail their lessons.

"The highest rates of single-parenthood are in the very same religion-heavy states of the South with low educational levels"

You're expecting single parents to pay for post secondary education for all their children? Are you imagining they all have financial security? Did it say why the parent was single? Usually poor people are the first to enter the military since there are no jobs at home. Perhaps their spouse died fighting in the Gulf war, or Afghanistan.

By the way, those stats don't say whether or not the single parents were members of a religious congregation. I'm pretty sure no N.American state or city is 100% religious.

"Utah, a very religious state, has the lowest level of single-parenthood - 23 percent."

Such a HUGE difference in percentages, eh. Did they ask if these kids were illegitimate? Regardless of the law, there are still Mormon polygamist groups, just like there are Muslim terrorist groups, and white supremacist groups.

We all know there are clusters of ignorant and flaky people who remain stuck together; even when the door of opportunity opens, they wont enter - what religion do rednecks and nihilists belong to?

I can provide a long list of university educated people who stupidly went rogue. Some of them had no children because they couldn't hold their relationships together long enough to re-produce, or because they're in jail.

near50ohoh: zanjan dont try to convince me you know more about being mennonite than i do. and dont discuss my place amongst my own people. it's nothing at all to do with you.

Zanjan: I see you're still unwilling to tell me what your religious denomination is. By the way, I took tap dancing when I was young so I guess I know more about that than you do.

Stassi SUR: Some people simply hate the South and the Bible belt. Everything is political to them.
It's that simple.

near50ohoh: i told you what i felt ok telling you zanjan and you have no right to know more, contrary to your opinion. this is about education and i told you enough of my history that it gave context to my views. thats all any reasonable person should ask of me. because i grew up in the mennonite world i actually agreed with you (ik huh?) that education isnt always found in govt schools and programs.
i can add another small piece to the puzzle. my first language is not english and had i grown up in the alt school like some of my cousins did, i would have been taught in a dialect of german rather than english. many religious schools teach their children languages of their own culture and religion, rather than english. so the kids may not be testing as well as a child who heard only english all their lives would, but they are hardly lacking a good education. if you were able to study their brains you would note they have differing development than the english only kids have. plus they speak two languages. so the tests dont cover everything the child knows. this was certainly the case for me.
to the point where, when i went to univ, i thought i was delayed and had myself tested. i was far from delayed!! i just had never been properly tested before. thats why i dont have much faith in these studies. they dont tell the whole story. (sorry, dave)
besides my own rearing, another example would be jewish kids who get trained in hebrew eg a day a week
then there's the purpose of education, which to kids is more about social skills and compliance with authority than any real knowledge. that you can give them in any group.

Stassi SUR: and speaking of " university educated people who stupidly went rogue" think of Bernie Madoff. He defrauded hundreds if not thousands of unsuspecting citizens out of their retirement and livelihood. Not sure if he went to Harvard, Yale or Princeton. Wait, he went to Penn (Ivy league university). And he is from NY.

btw, the highest crime rate/ dangerous cities are located mostly where? think of Detroit, Chicago, Oakland, Washington DC (murder capital), St. Louis, Flint, Baltimore, Atlantic City, etc.
(heavily populated by God/family values/religion hating libs)


just saying...

davesdatahut: Stassi, how do you come to the conclusion that those cities are "heavily populated by God/family values/religion hating libs." And while Bernie Madoff was a horrendous thief, how does one anecdote fits into this thread, which looks at the big picture?
For the record, I don't hate the South. I'd like to see that part of the country elevate itself and start contributing more to the nation's well-being (become more givers instead of takers). But I hold no hatred for the South.

davesdatahut: Zanjan, I am not quite sure what your points are, but I can at least answer a few:
<<You're expecting single parents to pay for post secondary education for all their children?>>
No, I'd like to see them emphasize an education for their children, so they have a better chance of attending colleges, which grant financial aid to low-income people.
<<Are you imagining they all have financial security?>> No, they clearly don't. That is part of the problem.
<< Did it say why the parent was single? Usually poor people are the first to enter the military since there are no jobs at home. Perhaps their spouse died fighting in the Gulf war, or Afghanistan.>> Presumably, single parenthood results from one parent taking off and not staying to support the child, in most cases. Military deaths would account for a tiny fraction of single-parent families.
<<By the way, those stats don't say whether or not the single parents were members of a religious congregation.>> No, they don't. But statistics strongly suggest that a lot of them are religious simply because that is the culture. It would be statistically nearly impossible for the single parents to be non-religious and the married parents to be religious. You have to assume, under the statistical laws of probability, that the numbers are spread evenly unless you have some reason not to.

Serabi:

Spiritual virtues?

near50ohoh: when discussing evaluation of education,esp in kids, i have to point out how skewed the tests are in the first place. let me reiterate the points i've already made briefly.
kids are in school to learn the skills of getting along with their peers and obeying authority. that is their major learning project. but oddly the tests dont ask the kids anything about these skills and gage their accomplishment.
kids are supposed to be learning how to think rather than what to think, yet the tests dont give them adequate opportunity to show excellence in basic logic, not as applied to math, science, and english language skills.
kids from other cultures than WASP are not given opportunity to show their abilities and cultural awareness. it displays a real bias or bigotry in the tests.
other than recitation of rota skills, there is no opportunity for kids to show comprehension of why the rules are what they are. so they might actually remember them beyond school
the tests focus on math, science and english. this focus often involves skills that are left brained and dont adequately cover the right brain abilities; concepts, relationships, and dynamics.
surveys of the test results often say that boys test better than girls do. why is this problem not being addressed esp since girls are now accessing higher education and trade opp's too?
other than showing you my CV, i cant prove my knowledge but my concerns are logical and with some research, you can prove they are commonly held ones in the fields of esp neurology, psychology and sociology.
so if the tests are skewed then so are any observations drawn from them and these may in fact cause biases and wrong implementations of supportive programs for the kids involved. in other words, the tests are skewed the results are skewed and why are we discussing them as if they have any legitimate weight outside of experiential data? and why are we still using them?

Zanjan: "how does one anecdote fits into this thread, which looks at the big picture?"

Stassi didn't have time to type 100 case histories. My former city of Calgary had the Bre-X scandal, which involved 3 very educated guys. I knew exactly when that stock would crash because Walsh let all his staff know so they could sell; and staff told me. Many educated people lost a bundle while those who had connections did extremely well.

Fortunately, I didn't have any stock in that company because I knew their claim was fake. I didn't have to be a geologist - I had enough background knowledge in placer gold to know their claim was wild and they salted the pan.

The educated notorious are always in the paper though, running through all professions you can name. The latest educated rat is Edward Snowden, who foolishly didn't have a very good back up plan or even a decent lie prepared for the press. Intelligent people know the difference between a whistle-blower and a mercenary.

Civil education isn't the be all and end all of life. Religious education offers wisdom - that you cant buy for any price. It's purpose is to guide you to the knowledge and worship of God, who is the source of life and all wisdom.

No matter how smart you are, if you can t apply your education properly, it causes more harm than good.

near50ohoh: more than education i think common sense is ur best tool in life. prob why i dont buy lottery tickets. yes someone has to win. but the odds of it being me, even with a psychic reading to find my best most magical numbers, is slim to none. and i dont play those odds.

Zanjan: Dave: " I'd like to see them emphasize an education for their children, so they have a better chance of attending colleges, which grant financial aid to low-income people."

By law, kids must attend school until they're in their mid teens so there's no choice in that matter. Then they can drop out because not every teen has the mental capacity or family situation to finish high school. They can go to night school later, when the situation is better.

For this reason, your stats may not be accurate or interpreted properly. Presumptions are useless. What were the age ranges for the survey?

In Canada, a higher functioning developmentally delayed (brain damaged) child may obtain a *general high school diploma*.........this, by no means, is a grade 12 equivalent but might help to show they mentally function well enough to get a job since they earned enough credits. If they have the right attitude, ethics, and contributions to the community, they may go further.

I have one client with a general high school diploma, who just got accepted into college. She's 28 years old. This is the Transitional Vocational Program, lasting 1 year.......tuition is free. There are almost 4 million people in my province but only 20 seats available each year. You can imagine everyone's excitement when she received her letter of acceptance. Yet her journey has just begun - it's a game-changer and she still has to pass.

By the way, she's religious; so was my last developmentally delayed client who was accepted by this college, and he graduated.

" But statistics strongly suggest that a lot of them are religious simply because that is the culture"

I've always lived in the Bible belt but I wasn't brought up religious - I had many friends like that too, maybe it was because we lived in the big city, a materialistic and a dangerous place for a young person. Naw, I doubt it...my own kids lived in the city and they were religious. Probably because our parents were violent alcoholics and non-religious, eh?

Zanjan: Near, you make good points about environment as well as testing methods. I'd like to add that's there's still too much emphasis on IQ tests as a means to judge degree of intelligence - it's a bad habit that wont go away.

Both my clients as above were teased & bullied mercilessly in school for being defective. My husband, who's only crime was being born in Germany, was so badly bullied because he couldn't' speak English, and was German, his dad had to go to school with him every day. His DAD! The teacher was no help at all. It's difficult to learn when school is such a rotten place you don't want to go.

I was bullied too, so I totally understand. However, I was bullied because I got high marks and had a mind of my own. I didn't want to join any hive so I walked alone. Bullies don't need an excuse, just someone they think is an easy target.

Near, where do you think common sense comes from? It's very obvious many people don't have it. Even when they have friends who do, they wont listen to their friend's advice because they, themselves, don't have the common sense to heed a warning.

near50ohoh: i think resilience and eagerness say more about a kid than their intelligence ever will. (and dont get me started on IQ tests grrrrrrrrrr ) schools may not get that but job recruiters do. you can be a genius, but if you cant cope in the real world, you go nowhere in life.

davesdatahut: Zanjan, what in the world do Bernie Madoff, Edward Snowden and that case in Calgary have to do with this thread?? They have absolutely nothing to do with whether there is a correlation between poor education and religion.
If you wish to stipulate that some really smart people commit crimes..duly stipulated.
And for the record, Snowden wasn't educated. He was either a high school or a college dropout.
And that bit about how some kids don't have the intellectual capacity to go to college? What is the relevance of this? This is particular to the South? Or something else? Or is this some kind of red herring or smokescreen to distract from the question at hand?
And then this: <<I've always lived in the Bible belt but I wasn't brought up religious - I had many friends like that too, maybe it was because we lived in the big city, a materialistic and a dangerous place for a young person. Naw, I doubt it...my own kids lived in the city and they were religious. Probably because our parents were violent alcoholics and non-religious, eh?>>
What does this mean???

davesdatahut: Tropical, there are some around here who toss out endless non-sequitors and complete gibberish just to distract from the point or make some unrelated point of their own. It is worth pointing out when they make meaningless posts....but then it is usually worth moving on and leaving them to their cockamamie ravings..

davesdatahut: That would be an option. They can have a pimplefest full of meaningless, disconnected ramblings that have nothing to do with anything. And that will be exactly the point!

near50ohoh: do you mean like the Seinfeld show?