is atheism eviler than Religion?

ryan58581: this subject came to me when i found out that in USA and Europe, Canada and most western nations that murder, theft, rape, and alot of crimes were committed mostly by atheists, although i think the atheists are soon going to be replaced by the ever growing radical Islam in Europe but not so much in north america
your thoughts

gronchbove: If you look at how many of the leaders in the world act, they don't believe in God or anyone. They only care about themselves. And it is not Radical Islam that will overtake Europe or North America. It is that Europe is killing itself off with Abortion, Sodom & Gomorrah and Divorce. It punishes parents who have babies. No future when you don't care about families.

orkanen: I doubt religion or lack thereof has as much to do with evilness as some people state. It's more about the people in power and what kind of arseholes they are, because power often attracts arseholes. The likeliness of eye for an eye demands are higher if they follow a monotheistic religion or some authoritarian ideology. Capital punishments for victimless crimes are often wet dreams for such leaders, as well as followers of said religion or ideology.

Several things must be in place to ensure peace and low crime rates, generally equal opportunities, decent education levels without religious interference, economic equality and a decent social security net for those who otherwise don't fit in well. Corruption also plays a role here, as well as transparency within government. Religious rules and laws tend to favour followers above others, a good cause for incivility. Secular rules and laws improves equality, with no special favours for select groups of people.

Living in the most peaceful region of the world, and in Europe, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. Inhabitants are less religious, and most crimes are performed by immigrants from former "communist" countries. Quotation marks, because communism, at least in theory, should mean total equality, but such countries never followed the principles of communism, an ideology that would only work if everyone were close relatives, like in an anthill.

gronchbove: I agree Orkanen that religion is less to blame than "evil leaders." Some evil men can only exist in governments - like Sodomites, Pedophiles and Child Molesters. Without power, the people would hang these evil devils. Most politicians are completely worthless producing nothing.

I see many people maybe 30% as "low animals" who don't care about much. Religion tries to get them to act like enlightened humans. But in the end, the people are to blame for their own crimes

Blaming others is unfortunate. Immigrants are not to blame. The 1% in power commit 50% of the crimes in the world.

orkanen: I'm not sure what a persons sexual preferences, or people subjected to child abuse or neglect, or people with mental problems have to do with governing principles. If you have a mental condition, finding your way to power is usually difficult. Besides that, look to middle east countries, or even Texas, how rules and directives based on religion creates problems.

If the sole purpose of a trip to a wealthy country is to steal and plunder, I'd blame the pretend immigrant any day. Checking statistics, the most religious immigrants with granted permanent residence in my country have the highest representation on criminal statistics. For foreigners with tourist or work permits, organized criminals originate generally from Easter European countries, for criminal asylum applicants, Iraq, Iran and Somalia, in other words, also religious people.

Exploiting the rules or setting the rules is another game altogether, which I know too little about.

gronchbove: Sodom & Gomorrah is evil. It is not a preference when a Catholic priest molests a child. These people would be behind bars if they were not part of European governments.

"Steal and Plunder?" That is European History. It seems like the sole purpose of nations, like Greece, Portugal, Spain and England have been to go around the world stealing, kidnapping Africans and killing innocent people.

A Sodomite without any morals, will never be responsible. Many European nations are collapsing because their leaders are worthless. In the last 14 years, Europe has been in a depression. Name one European leader who has done anything significant to stop the collapse? None.

An immigrant has no power. He is poor. The real damage is done by those who control the police, businesses and society. Europe must look in the mirror to assign guilt.

gronchbove: One more point about families. Europe has told women they can get pregnant and society will pay for it. Why? Where is that money coming from? Why are you paying for the irresponsibility of a woman?

It makes no sense. Then you pay a woman more money if she does not live with a father. Children without fathers have no discipline. They are more likely to be criminals.

Once again, your government social policy is ruining your country. Not a few poor immigrants.

orkanen: Stealing and plundering is done in every part of the world, be it based on need or power. The European depression is economically based, and to my knowledge, has nothing to do with anal fornicators. Germany has money and doesn't want to lose it, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Ireland don't have money, but want it. All of them are doing it wrong, causing the depression to worsen instead of improving. I'm not sure what you mean by the other Biblical references you posted.

The first immigrants from Pakistan were welcomed to my country. After a while, when more and more came, a few of them began presenting unreasonable demands, like us changing our culture to accommodate theirs. As this progressed, they became less and less welcome. This is overly simplified, but I hope you understand my example.

There are always racists. Generally, a racist is uneducated to more or lesser degree, perhaps even with personal issues. The worst racists in my country are Muslims, partially because they are raised to believe they are better than others because they believe in Allah. They are uneducated in that they reject or deny parts of basic education, in favour of their religion. Generally speaking.

What is best for a child of a single mother? That the mother has some money to raise that child, or that she has no money? Not everyone agrees with your concept of morality, therefore, not everyone will follow your ideas. Not everyone has the same control over their life as you have with yours, not everyone is capable of doing so. Why make it particularly difficult for such people? By your ways, you are forcing them into crime, instead of security. Is this what you hope for?

gronchbove: Why should Germany pay for lazy people? The European welfare system makes no sense. You punish families and businesses, to pay for fornication and prostitution.

Your depression is only going to get worse.

I understand your example. Cultures are different. Europeans are not Asians and vice versa. It makes sense.

I agree with you about racism. Most doctors are not racists, because they are educated. Immigrants go to Europe because of the jobs. Now, there are no jobs, so the immigrants will leave. That is a natural process.

Morality saves money. Immorality will lead to your bankruptcy. It is called nature. You cannot beat Mother nature.

What is best for a child - a mother who gets married and respects her husband. He cares for the child. The society saves money. The child has standards. It goes back to your fornicating leaders, they are immoral. They don't know how to run a family. That is why Europe is crumbling. The leaders are idiots. But same thing in the US - the leaders are idiots who spend more time with prostitutes then in doing any meaningful work.

gronchbove: How long has Mother Nature lasted? millions of years. She abhors idiocy. She wipes out Sodomites. She creates equilibrium.

How long has the European Union been around? Since 1992. 20 years. She blesses Sodomites. She creates chaos. She destroys herself. It is a law of life. You can't hide from the truth forever.

orkanen: gronchbove: I suggest you lay off of your Bible for a while and instead read up a bit on national economics and a bit on various political directions, what they stand for, what works and what doesn't. I then suggest you build up an understanding of psychological disorders, how they occur and how to deal with them. I also suggest you look at your conspiracy theories for what they are, and discard them.

People in your country are made criminals because of the system they live under, where a minute minority control the majority of resources, where education is decimated by religions and where the masses are controlled by the same religions. I have free health care if I get sick. If I'm scarred for life, I will be cared for, I will get the aid I need and when I need it. No one will check to see if I have money to pay for any required and life saving operation if I so happen to need one. Can you say the same?

gronchbove: Orkanen, I understand economics. Do you understand fiat currencies, compound interest and debt-bases monetary systems? It is dangerous to assume. And you have assumed too much.

Who pays for all of those things? Do you not understand Socialism? Nothing is free. Socialism is great until "you run out of someone else's money to steal." Orkanen the wealthy are leaving Europe because they don't want to pay for a broken system. Nothing is free.

gronchbove: Orkanen, read about Gerard Depardieu, the famous actor who left France because of your "have wealthy people pay for free stuff" system. The wealthy are leaving. Don't you understand that? Look at Greece. One day your country will be full of people without jobs, no money and Sodomites who say "Who is gonna pay for our free stuff now?"

No one. That is reality.

gronchbove: "Plans announced by French President Francois Hollande to "tax the rich" are driving wealthy French citizens out of the country" from Bloomberg, The New American and Telegraph

"Rich people leave when governments tax them 50%" Peakoil.com. That is reality. That is happening. Your system is dying. You are running out of money.

gronchbove: Orkanen, one more thing. Don't think that I am targeting your country in particular. I am not. Nearly 75% of the world has the same unsustainable system. And it is running out of money. The entire world will suffer.

We must replace the dying system with One Love!

orkanen: I live neither in Germany nor France. Official tax rate in my country is 28% for business tax and up to 48% private tax, progressive. Secondary taxes are trade taxes (25%) and specific taxes on various goods and items, most of them deductable by by firms.

My country survives on oil and fish export, with technology on the side, we are not part of the European depression.

I see what works in my country and what doesn't. I agree that our total tax pressure is too high and must be dealt with before the oil runs out. We still have a system that takes care of the less fortunate, ensuring lowered crime rates. With the correct changes, it can be maintained at low cost to society. Some things needs to be changed, present political parties don't have the correct recipe or guts to cure it yet.

I am aware of the lower parts of society, what cures have been tried, which ones work and which ones don't. The above mentioned guts will come sooner or later. For example, many countries spend loads of money trying to stop drug traffic and drug abuse. If instead the abusers were considered ill and given treatment, they themselves would immediately stop the criminal activity they do to finance their abuse, their suppliers would be out of work, reducing the need for policing in that end and they themselves would soon be well enough to provide for themselves. How much does treating them like criminals in the first place cost society, as a comparison?

What does anal fornicators have to do with all of this?

I agree most countries' systems leave much to be desired. The old Greek ways of allowing for leave of absence if someone got too powerful is long forgotten. I know I would not function well in a governing environment, but I know a few I'd rather see there than the ones presently there.

gronchbove: Orkanen, I don't know you, but oil and fish. I am guessing Norway. You probably have the krona too. You can control your own economy with a local currency. That creates a more sound economic base.

If you are talking North Sea oil, then yes the oil has already peaked.

Here is what I say about marriage. A woman and man should get married. It is good for society. The man makes money, the woman raises the kid. The government does not need to spend "scarce" revenue from oil.

Under the "Anal Fornicator" welfare system, you have single mothers who "don't have jobs." The government must divert money from oil to pay for these women. If you instead take the oil revenue and create more jobs for the husbands, your system would be more efficient.

A wise moral man supports marriage. An "anal fornicators" hates marriage. His immorality is damaging your system forcing Orkanen to pay for someone else's baby. Why should you raise someone else's child, right?

This is where an immoral decision leads to economic problems.

orkanen: By hovering my pointer over your nickname or chosen picture, you come up as a male from Minneapolis next to an American flag. If you do the same with my nickname or image, you'll get Male, Oslo and a Norwegian flag.

You're the one continuously bringing up anal fornicators, for unknown reasons. I don't judge people I don't know, knowing everyone has their reasons for being in whatever situation they're in. From experience, I'm skeptical when encountering certain groups of people, but let it pass if I find myself in error. I take precautions where needed.

Checking statistics, I find single mothers to flourish among the more superstitious of inhabitants here in Norway, particularly of Christian denomination. I don't know, but aren't they supposed to be the most moral of the bunch? I vote for sufficient education, but obviously, countering early religious childhood indoctrination is not always successful, also observed on parts of our Muslim population. They don't have such a single mother problem, as their religion is based on mistrust, more than within Christianity.

In my country, both parents are encouraged to work. Children are ideally tended for by one or both parents until they're at least 2 years of age, then transferred to day care. I have my own thoughts about extended families, but I am not educated on the matter.

I don't know what immoral decisions you're addressing that could lead to economic problems, please emphasize.

gronchbove: I must have guessed right. Orkanen, do you know Minnesota. We have Johnson and Johnsen and Olsen and Olafson. So I grew up next to Norwegians. It is not about judgment, it is about morals. People "devoid of morals" make horrible leaders.

Let me elaborate. Under Social Welfare, the state pretends to be everyone's Mommy and Daddy. If Norwegian Sven Olson decides to ruin his life and becoming addicted to drugs or Heidi Johnson decides to get pregnant without being married, your system states that everyone else must pay for it.

Meanwhile, Sven and Heidi sit at home. They are completely unproductive. The system gets worse and worse until 60% of your population is "on the dole." Eventually, your country goes bankrupt. "Immoral decisions" can lead to "financial bankruptcy."

That is what is happening in Greece. 33% of the population works in the government. The government does not produce anything. That is why it is bankrupt.

orkanen: I was under the impression that Greece had a huge corruption problem. Government employees and others refused to do their job before they got extra money under the table.

Being on social welfare is not lucrative. You get enough to survive. You get roof over your head and food on the table, but not much spending money otherwise.

In my country, teachers, doctors, nurses, social workers, police, waste disposal employees and so on are all government employees, don't they produce anything? Being government employed doesn't mean you sit at a desk and do nothing.

Anyway, it seems you don't know much about other people. I suggest you seek information on mental and physical disabilities and on racism, all hindering people from getting adequately paid work. For example, a mental or physical disability will render the possessor unsuitable for many types of work, to the level of them being untrustworthy. If pain hinders you from performing your job, are you within desirable work force? Who would hire you, where will you get money to survive? How will your condition affect your social life, your economy?

gronchbove: Here is my point. You have 10 guys and 10 girls in a society. If they all have children. You have 30 productive people. If you have 10 guys and 10 girls and they are all Sodomites, you have no children, the society dies.

What do the police produce? Nothing. Our taxes pay for their salaries. No productive people, no police.

My point is this, sure you will have some people who "cannot" work due to mental or physical disability, but Orkanen, I see plenty of people who are able-bodied on welfare doing nothing. That is unproductive. That will lead to the death of a society.

gronchbove: Acrobat, the problem is that a natural system requires "someone" to pay for single mothers. Do you know that 77% of people in prison are from "fatherless homes?" The entire welfare system is "unsustainable." The Greeks have defaulted numerous times on their debt.

A woman gets pregnant. She takes sick leave. Who is paying for her food? She watches her child. Who is paying for her food?

I don't see a single mother as "vulnerable." You made your choice. Have you ever heard of marriage? No one "forced" you to be a single mother. You weren't born with a physical disability preventing you from working. You made a choice.

No. I do not stereotype the "weak" who can't work. I criticize the fat and lazy who "refuse" to work and think I should pay for their life. No. You made your choice. You live with it. That is what is happening to the Greeks. The rest of the world refuses to pay for their "wrong choices."

You are a grown woman, don't blame someone else for being a single mother. Take some responsibility for your life.

gronchbove: Acrobat, I look at society and see a "system that cannot work." I saw a hard-working man make a great salary, but his children stay with his ex-wife. I see gold-diggers marry wealthy men and get a divorce and get half.

The Western society is dying. It is run by Catholic pedophiles, sodomites and lazy bums who have never worked a day in their lives. I see Feminists who do not respect men. If you don't respect a father or husband who works hard, then he is going to leave.

Many wealthy men are going to Asia. They see European women as greedy, lazy and just want to get divorced. If you and society don't respect men, you will destroy yourself. A real man stays with a good woman. A wise man gets far away from a woman and society who do not respect his hard work, authority and rights.

gronchbove: The problem with Feminism is that it destroys society. It creates an unsustainable system that does not respect fatherhood or hard work. Every country with Feminism is bankrupt. They are morally and financially bankrupt. They have no morals and no money.

Be responsible. Look at the Feminists as the problem. They promised you a lie.