Who Believes in the Devil? (Page 97) ghostgeek: First off, eternity is actually hard to conceive of or logically imagine, if not impossible. Eternity does not mean a really, really, really long time. Rather, it actually means the end or absence of time: no beginnings and no ends. Think about that. In such a situation – which I find even impossible to really wrap my brain around – there is no reason to commit to anything or start or stop anything because starting and stopping require time. But with endless time, they don’t make much sense. As Hägglund explains, “there cannot be any meaningful activities in eternity, since nothing can live on in a timeless presence and nothing can matter in an everlasting existence” [ https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-secular-life/201902/want-eternal-life-are-you-sure ]  Zanjan: First down, if the Big Bang theory is correct, then there was no heaven at the time. Heaven requires humans to comprehend it and live in it. Could not your citiations apply to a very long spiritual cycle that began with the first Revelator, Adam? This is what Baha'u'llah says it means. The old world order covered a span of time from mankind's infancy to its childhood and to adolescence. That's why our species was very war-like. Now is the time for its maturity. The kind of civilization we're now building is a precedent. Nothing like it in the past. Zanjan: Ghost: "....it actually means the end or absence of time: no beginnings and no ends." You're right. Eternity also has no space. " nothing can live on in a timeless presence and nothing can matter in an everlasting existence” That's not correct. You sleep, don't you? Perhaps you've had moments where time stood still (it does when I pray). There's still motion. Maybe you've lost track of time or, for some reason, have been disoriented. If you're confused, that will matter to you. While there is no starting and stopping in eternity, there's movement and transformation - nothing in existence remains static, not on the physical plane or the spiritual dimension either. You have consciousness. You might be moving forward or slipping back. In the hereafter, there's no slipping back. When the Book says one will be at a place for all eternity, forever and ever, it's speaking of a spiritual dimension that can't be described - the hereafter. For the unbelievers and negligent, one is still moving but not going anywhere. Think of the planets in the solar system - they aren't in suspended animation, they're on an endless loop. Eternity isn't the big deal - LIFE is. This is where heaven is...eternal life is the only existence worth mentioning. There are worlds upon worlds to navigate, there's growth and progress, purpose and wonderful delights. On earth, there are souls who exist but without life - same in the hereafter. In the hereafter, all are moving towards God; for many, God is too far away to feel His heat and the realms of heaven are too distant for them to see. (Edited by Zanjan) ghostgeek: If something can't be described, how can it be known that it exists? It might be nothing but a mirage in the mind. Zanjan: There's lots of indescribable things - emotional feelings and sensations, to start with. Words fail because language is limited. At best, we can only liken it to something similar that everyone can relate to. Probably not with one word though. Perhaps you've experienced an episode of the screaming meemies? Nothing hit you but your body physically reacts. That won't register on equipment but is certainly real, regardless of what triggered it. How would you describe a super fast speed without equipment? "Fantastic" would hardly be accurate. Nobody agrees on descriptions of colours or perfumes because one person can see or smell what another can't. Our physical senses aren't entirely reliable. Same for our minds. If you live in a small world, the description of my bigger world would bounce off you. Zanjan: Most of us have seen different kinds of mirages - they're fuzzy "photos" of real things. If the photo disappears, does the real thing cease to exist? Seriously, this is so tribal! ghostgeek: Isn't religion all about which tribe you belong to? "My God is the true one." "No, MY God is the true one!" ghostgeek: You and Blackshoes are a good example. Both claiming to believe in the one true God yet both saying the other is wrong. Standing aside from the squabbling, it seems to me that it's proof positive that no such deity exists. Zanjan: Hey, I've never said Shoes was wrong - not once! That's because I don't find accusations to be helpful. How often have you heard me say "one true God"?? I don't think we live in a polytheistic society. We both say there is only ONE God. We both know that nobody owns God. We agree that God has favourites and that we all fall short - I've disappointed myself at times but God has never failed me. As you know, there are things Shoes and I don't agree on but we agree everyone finds out the reality eventually. I discuss things. Squabbling is when one doesn't let their position rest and the other party go. Wire is nowhere near what religious dialogue is like - it's strictly a casual conversation style. Perhaps the experience can be a springboard to more uplifting sharing. Zanjan: "proof positive that no such deity exists." If you believe the devil exists, you must believe God exists. If you don't believe either exist, you haven't been paying attention. That would make you an empty can. ghostgeek: I guess what looks like squabbling to one person seems like gentle banter to someone else. Anyway, moving on past you and Blackshoes, religions do take their differences seriously, as religious persecutions old and new prove. ghostgeek: This makes me wonder why this God of yours sits idly on Its cloud as the blood flows. Does it enjoy seeing people slaughtered in its name? Zanjan: No, God enjoys seeing you learn which are the good guys and bad guys. He also has a way of calling attention to Himself. We shouldn't have to spell this out. The problem is we don't agree when a religion's dispensation is over. We also don't agree when it has fallen to ruin or when humanity is at its most neglectful. This particular event tells us when. Mark it on your history calendar so you remember. Remind anyone who forgets. You'll note it only occurs when a *new* Revelator of God appears. The majority of those committing the persecution belong to the previous religion. They aren't ignorant, they're bitter because they've been exposed. Oddly, you only have to sail through your waterloo once. (Edited by Zanjan) ghostgeek: What I do note is that's it's only you who talks of Revelators. Everybody seems to get along fine without them. ghostgeek: Now about this learning who are the good guys and bad guys. Why should people suffer just to highlight who is a bad guy? That sounds truly evil. Are you really sure God isn't the Devil?  Aspect212: I believe the devil exists because Jesus said he does. As the divine Son of God, Jesus had the greatest credentials of anyone who ever walked on earth. And God vindicated Jesus' teachings by raising him from the dead. Zanjan: I don't believe something just because somebody great said it. If I did that, I wouldn't understand it or be thinking for myself. I want to know how something works; I want proof of that. If the devil is some external invisible entity, point to which person has said this. I think you'll find that person is just trying to pass the buck. Wasn't me, it was the devil. Are we 5 year olds? If we saw the devil coming and the devil made us do it, then what's our excuse for not fighting back? Why were we helpless? (Edited by Zanjan) | Religion Chat Room 33 People Chatting Similar Conversations |
