The Mystery of Jesus Christ. (Page 11)

lori100: chayiii translated it on the 'Do you feel Jesus was a Messiah, Prophet or Deity? Why or why not?' thread

The13th: Oh yeah Peguena I love u too.

ghostgeek: But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, “A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!” This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!” And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!” Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, “Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!” And just as he added at the last, “Woe, woe to myself also!” there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost. [ Wars of the Jews; 6, 300 - Josephus ]

ghostgeek: I find it strange that Josephus has little to say about the New Testament Jesus but quite a bit about a harmless crank, also called Jesus, doing the rounds in 62 AD. See the similarities? The same name; Jesus. The same lowly class. Both in the Temple during time of a holy festival. The same prophesy; the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. He even ends up getting short shrift at the hands of the Jews and is hauled in front of the Roman procurator. And, of course, all this happens very near the time the first Gospel, Mark's, is supposed to have been written.

I wonder, could people have been confused over who was who and used the details of Jesus, the son of Ananus, as the template for the Jesus of the Gospel narratives?

ghostgeek: More from Josephus:

In the year 6 of our era, Judas the Galilean attempted to oppose the census instituted by the legate P. Sulpicius Quirinius, and founded the groups of Zelotes, who recognized no other master than God.

Somewhere between 44 and 46, the Prophet Theudas, at the head of a band of followers, marched towards the Jordan and Jerusalem, proclaiming that the waters of the Jordan would divide at the sound of his voice. The Procurator, Cuspius Fadus, had the band dispersed by his cavalry. The Prophet’s head was brought to Jerusalem.

Somewhere between 52 and 58, an Egyptian Jew led a mob as far as the Mount of Olives, promising that the walls of Jerusalem would fall at his command. The Procurator Felix sallied forth at the head of the garrison. Four hundred fanatics were killed, two hundred taken prisoner: the Egyptian disappeared.

[ http://vridar.org/2012/03/05/only-by-his-death-does-jesus-become-historical/ ]

Zanjan: "Jesus" was a common name - a man had to be identified by his father so there's no confusion. It was Jewish practice when introducing one's self to recite one's lineage for ID verification. You might be confused but they weren't.

At the time of the Messiah, there are many doomsday sayers. During that time, the crazed Roman Emperor, Caligula, declared himself to be God; in 39 AD, he threatened to destroy the Jewish temple because the Jews wouldn't erect a statue of him in their temple. So, what Jesus said about destroying the temple should have hit very close to home.

The Jews were so afraid, they sent a delegation to Rome to pacify the Emperor, to no avail. Caligula suddenly died mysteriously - what a co-incidence! The Jews thought they were safe but they couldn't prevent their own judgment. It was Stephan, who was hit by a rock and killed - he was the first Christian Martyr, after Jesus.

Josephus was a Jew, who pandered to the Romans. He wasn't in Israel when all those events went down with Jesus or even during the Jewish rebellion. What he recorded was heresay, which he conflated with other stories, coloured with Roman favour. Josephus never supplied any evidence to back up his story-telling; consequently, his documentation could be easily tampered with by anyone.

Zanjan: Well, none of this has anything to do with the Mystery of Jesus, Himself. Prophecy is no mystery - it's always been around and isn't a mystery to anyone after it's been fulfilled.

ghostgeek: Maybe Jesus was a common name but not all of them were prophets who ended up being thrashed by a Roman procurator. Nor did they all prophesy the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem when everything was peaceful.

Now, as to Josephus, he most certainly was in Israel during the Jewish rebellion. He was chosen by the Sanhedrin at Jerusalem to be commander-in-chief in Galilee. As is well known, he ended up joining the retinue of Titus, and was an eyewitness of the destruction of the Holy City and her Temple. And for all his faults, he's pretty well rated as an historian by scholars.

Nobody really has a clue who wrote the four Gospels, or what their sources were, so they're not exactly reliable witnesses. All-in-all, Josephus is probably a better bet when it comes to trustworthiness.

Zanjan: Israel was never at peace - it was under foreign occupation in the time of Christ; the stirrings of the first of three Jewish revolts was being felt. The Jews wanted a king to put down the Romans, rather than a king who would lift them up.

Since Jesus told people that an uprising wasn't the way to do things, He was both friend to Jews and the Romans. In the time of Christ, Josephus hadn't be born yet.

I should have clarified Josephus's involvement in the war - yes, he was appointed to fight against the Romans...that doesn't mean he actually did or even planned to carry out that mission. Above all, Josephus was a manipulating opportunist.

What he did was lead his companions to a rat hole and their doom, surrendering to the Romans after a six week seige. ( in a seige, the opponent doesn't need to fight - they just wait it out because the defender is surrounded) Didn't seem to bother him when his fellows were put to death. He put on a right good show then sat out most of the war, having defected to the Roman side.

He pleased Vespian by telling him there was a Jewish prophecy that he'd be made Emperor. Consequently, Vespian decided to hold him captive as an interpreter instead of killing him, so the story goes. After Vespian became Emperor, he freed Josephus and gave him Roman citizenship, at which time he took on the Emperor's family name of Flavius. He advised Titus how to destroy Jerusalem.

Kissed off his Jewish buddies early in the game, wouldn't you say? Is back-stabbing a trait of trustworthiness?

ghostgeek: The lad wasn't all bad. He went to Rome in the year 64 A.D. with the object of procuring from Nero the release of some imprisoned Jewish priests, who were friends of his. He succeeded in winning the favour of Poppæa Sabina, the emperor's consort, and through her influence gained his cause. Also, he attempted to save the lives of three crucified former acquaintances by appealing directly to the Roman general Titus. One survived the cross under a physician’s care, but the other two couldn't be saved. And at some personal risk he did try to persuade the Jews in Jerusalem to surrender.

ghostgeek: Mmmm ... strange how there are so many coincidences between the death of Jesus and what Josephus wrote.

"I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered."

Three crucified men, two of whom die and one lives, after somebody asks for them to be taken down. Could be the template for the Passion of Christ?

Zanjan: Sorry, you haven't convinced me that Josephus did anything that wasn't in his own best interest. The policy, 'I'll scratch your back IF you scratch mine" is still a natural understanding amongst those who love status. A leopard doesn't change its spots.

I'm betting those 3 were some heads he'd stepped on as he made his way through the ranks. As the old saying goes 'remember me when you come into your own'. I hear it every time somebody buys a lotto ticket.

Colour me "Not born yesterday"

ghostgeek: It doesn't really matter what Josephus's motives were. All that's important is that somebody looking for ideas for writing a Gospel about Jesus could have found some good plot suggestions from Josephus's work.

Zanjan: That wasn't his job. I mean, it's like asking EP Thompson to comment on Islam.

ghostgeek: Not sure who EP Thompson is.

Zanjan: He was the historian who wrote "The Making of the English Working Class".

Josephus wasn't writing about Jewish or Christian history - he was commenting on the history of the Roman Empire. Others wrote about Jesus before Josephus was even born.

ghostgeek: That probably explains things then. The last thing I'm interested in is working. It's too much like ...errr ... working.

Zanjan: Think of it as messing with people's minds.

ghostgeek: That sounds more interesting.

ghostgeek: Now who wrote about Jesus before Josephus?

ghostgeek: Not that Josephus wrote about Christ.

Zanjan: The Apostles sent letters to the churches - yes, they were literate. These letters were later turned into the Books in the N. Testament.

ghostgeek: Paul certainly. Anyone else?

ghostgeek: Just noticed something interesting, in Matthew,s genealogy, besides Tamar, three other women appear. Rehab the prostitute, Ruth the seductress and Bathsheba the rape victim. Could this be telling us something?

Zanjan: Yep. It means that even the worst or messed up of people aren't immune to the love of God.