The Mystery of Jesus Christ. (Page 69)

ghostgeek: Did Paul, the nearest thing we have to an eyewitness of Jesus' life, tell us anything about him apart from the fact that he was crucified and reputedly seen after his death? If he did, everybody seems to have missed it. Not much for a world-changer.

ghostgeek: James, on the other hand, grabbed Paul by the short and curlies and made his eyes water. What is more, James was such a presence that when given the chance the Jewish authorities stoned him.

Zanjan: We have it that almost all the Apostles met their end as Martyrs. So did many believers. Paul said one shouldn't be following one Apostle over another but understand they were all united in Christ.

If Paul had been teaching anything different than the other Apsotles were teaching, the collective would have quickly excommunicated him. The Apostles met together, they agreed, then went off to their missions.

Zanjan: Ghost, here is the passage you’re struggling with:

(1 Corinthians 15:5) “and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve…….”

I take that as appearing to Cephas (Peter) twice – once in private, then again while he was with the Apostles. Note that only 3 disciples were with Jesus during the Transfiguration – Peter, James and John, and they were told not to tell anyone else about it; it was a private affair and they weren’t Apostles yet.

The passage goes on to say: “he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time…”

Does “same time” mean on the same day, same week, or simultaneously? That’s a lot of reports, drifting in. When were more than 500 all gathered in the same location to witness a single event?

You shouldn’t hang on every word but take all the teachings together, each in their own setting.

ghostgeek: 1 Corinthians 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

OK, Jesus is supposed to have visited Cephas first, then this mysterious Twelve, followed by the 500 or so, and James. Now, if that was it ( barring Paul, of course ) I would have no problem, but after James, Jesus visits the apostles. This means the Twelve are not the apostles but some other group that the Gospels make no mention of. So who are they?

It's when I turn to the Community Rule, one of those dreaded Dead Sea Scrolls, that I find the answer. There it states that twelve men and three priests will form the council of the community. So what am I supposed to think? Paul's description of the organization of the Jesus movement sounds an awful lot like that of the Dead Sea Scrolls community if you remember that James, Cephas and John were the acknowledged leaders of the Jerusalem Christians.

ghostgeek: Now, was James zealous for the Law as we'd expect from a xenophobic Jew of the sort who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls? The answer to that question must be yes, seeing as how he reeled Cephas in when the latter started eating his meals with Gentiles. So here we have another reason to think the Jesus Movement was none other than the Dead Sea Scrolls community operating under another name.

ghostgeek: Also, Paul clearly spent a great deal of his time collecting for the poor of Jerusalem. So was this money intended for that city's destitute? Well, before answering that question, recall that one of the terms the Dead Sea Scroll community denoted themselves by was "the Poor". This means Paul could have been collecting for the Dead Sea Scroll community.

ghostgeek: Then, of course, we have to consider those opponents mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls: The Righteous Teacher, The Wicked Priest and The Spouter of Lies. Scour the history books and in only one period do you find three men, living at the same time, who equate with these personages: James the Just, Ananus the High Priest who had him stoned and Paul. Thus we have another link between the Jesus Movement and the Dead Sea Scroll community.

ghostgeek: And by the way, Paul makes it clear that Cephas and Peter were different individuals.

Zanjan: Jesus specified who they were to collect money for - widows and orphans. They were at the greatest disadvantage where even their most basic needs weren't being met. Whereas priests and scribes were male professionals - they were paid.

The poor were those who were poor in spirit - they thirst and hunger for spiritual food and drink - nothing but the Holy Spirit can satiate them.

Ghost, I think it's pointless to punch holes then fill them in with bits of imagination. Nobody knows anything about Jesus and His crew except for what Christians recorded.

"The Righteous Teacher, The Wicked Priest and The Spouter of Lies"

You make that sound like a rarity. Who would be shocked? Many societies are filled with these today. Why not back then?

"Paul makes it clear that.........."

Now you're sounding like Blackshoes, who's constantly repeating that the Bible makes it VERY clear. I wonder how many more new translations will be necessary to muddify it. Yeah, you read that right.

ghostgeek: Zanjan, I never expected to convince you that your beliefs are a little ungrounded but consider this little extra tidbit anyway. In the commentary on Habakkuk it talks about the "Kittim who inspire all the nations with fear". Now it seems generally agreed that by the "Kittim" the pesher is referring to the Romans, and realistically there does seem nobody else who fits the bill. Right then, Pompey incorporated Palestine into the Roman Empire in 63 BC, so it seems reasonable to presume the pesher is concerning itself with a time after that date. Very well, so consider this:

9/ Interpreted, this concerns the Wicked Priest whom God delivered into the hands of his enemies because of the iniquity committed against the Teacher 10/ of Righteousness and the men of his Council, that he might be humbled by means of 11/ a destroying scourge, in bitterness of soul, because he had done wickedly 12/ to His elect.

What happened to Ananus ben Ananus, the High Priest who contrived to have James stoned? Josephus tells us that he was killed by the Idumeans and cast naked from Jerusalem. So, doesn't this sound a lot like what happened to the Wicked Priest?

ghostgeek: Mmm ... am I detecting a certain reluctance to accept that Cephas and Peter were two different members of the Jerusalem community? Take a look at this and see if you don't change your mind:

Galatians 2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. [ New International Version ]

Peter was an apostle to the circumcised and Cephas was one of the esteemed pillars of the community. Nothing could be clearer.

Zanjan: Some of them got new names - it's easy to relapse to the old name until one gets used to the new name.


Ghost: “So, doesn't this sound a lot like what happened to the Wicked Priest?”

Actually, that reminds me of 4 Popes and a couple of Ayatollahs.

The string of events: Jesus was brought before Annus to be questioned prior to being passed on to the presiding High Priest, Caiaphas. Jesus promises that Caiaphas will live long enough to discover Jesus’s true rank and power. Josephus states that the proconsul Lucius Vitellius the Elder deposed Caiaphas, who died in 36 AD.

There is some controversy over which James died on the temple steps in Jerusalem. The term “brother” was used for all male Christians. James’s DOD is given between year 62-69.

Annus ben Annus was only High Priest for a year, in 63 AD then fired by King Agrippa and replaced. Both Jews and Christians alike agreed the murder of James the Just caused the siege of Jerusalem, a far worse thing than one wicked priest’s death.

ghostgeek: Ayatollahs and Popes weren't an issue back then, so it's to Josephus we go. What he tells us is that Ananus, and the high priest that followed him, another Jesus, formed a moderate party when the revolt started and began to organize defensive measures. Didn't do either of them any good, though, because the hotheads killed them.

ghostgeek: That puts Ananus in the right place at the right time to be the Wicked Priest. And poor old James the Just certainly had trouble with Paul, so there's no reason why they can't be the Righteous Teacher and the Spouter of Lies respectively. You know the old saying, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then it's a duck by any other name. Well, something here is paddling around like a duck and it's quacking very loudly indeed.

ghostgeek: Moving on, all this talk of Jesus of Nazareth makes me wonder why there's nothing written about him until decades later, when the Gospels pop into existence and the Church Fathers start sharpening their quills. Turn to Paul and the only things you learn about the Jesus are that he was crucified and reputedly seen after his death by his grieving followers. Well, my answer to that question is simple. Paul didn't give a whatsit about the real Jesus. All Paul was concerned about was turning Jesus into a Jewish variant of the Pagan's dying and rising god.

ghostgeek: And that was what the writer of Mark faced when he came to write his gospel. A big fat nothing as far as Jesus was concerned. No life history, no deeds and no record of his preaching. So what Mark did was invent.

Zanjan: There wouldn't be any sense in Paul repeating what other Apostles (still alive) had said about Jesus. How many historical narratives of a 3 year period does one need?

His focus was on the laws and principles of the Faith, directed mainly to Christians. God doesn't waste the time of a very intelligent, knowledgable, and experienced person.

MJ59: There is no dog

ghostgeek: Paul was focused on the money! Read his epistles and you'll see that he was in charge of a money-raising scam. Now I'm betting that James heard about this, didn't like his brother's name being used in such a scheme and sent some of his goons up to Damascus to rat on Paul to the authorities. That's when Paul had to do a runner by being lowered in a basket down the city wall. It's interesting that he scooted straight down to Jerusalem after not bothering about the place for three years after his "conversion".

So what happens in Jerusalem? Paul sees Cephas and James, then he's off on his travels again. More than likely he and James did a deal. Paul would hand over a slice of the baksheesh and James wouldn't put the mockers on Paul's activities.

ghostgeek: As for Jesus, the only important thing he contributed to history was getting himself killed. That gave Paul his dying and rising godman and entry into the Bible.

ghostgeek: For Paul, Jesus was the legend of a man being seen after his death. That's all he needed, so that's all he related to his followers.

ghostgeek: Then, after the Jews tweaked the Romans' nose hairs and got kicked in the goolies for their pains, somebody in the nascent Christian movement realised they'd be better off parting company with their Jewish buddies. That's when Mark put quill to papyrus and dreamt up his gospel.

ghostgeek: If you read it, you'll see it puts clear blue water between Jesus and those pesky Jews.

ghostgeek: And as for dogs, I think somebody should introduce the notion of contraception to them.