The Mystery of Jesus Christ. (Page 73)

ghostgeek: Astral travel, though, is something I don't have a clue about.

ghostgeek: As also seems to be the case with most "experts" when it come to the term "Son of Man". Logical to suppose that all blokes are one.

Zanjan: The boundaries of countries were different then - pre-Islamic Arabic territory reached up as far as what is today Syria. There was no Syria back then.

Furthermore, trade routes were well established and ancient in Muhammad's time; they all had names for the end of the line. It's still that way. For instance, the "Alaska Highway" - that I traveled this road for hundreds of miles doesn't mean I left Canada and went to the USA (to Alaska)

So no, Muhammad never left Arabia.

ghostgeek: Not wishing to get in an interminable wrangle over who's right I'll just say that I thought Syria was part of the Byzantine Empire until after Muhammad's death and move on.

Zanjan: Not to be picky but surely you know that an empire is a collection of many states or countries, whose borders and ethnic substance don't change just because they pay tribute to a superpower.

For most ancients, countries (autonymous nations) didn't yet exist - there were only tribal territories and city-states, which were identified by cultural rather than ethnic origins. For example, the region we know today as Syria is culturally Arab, not ethnically Arab.

I think it's important not to confuse political boundaries with geographic regions. Where you hailed from depended on what you called a place.

The classical Arabic name for the western Levant was bilād aš-ša'm - "Land of Shem" (descendant of Noah). They were all Semitic peoples in the Near East except the Syrians were decendants of the Assyrians, the Persians.

The Byzantine Empire's capital city was Constantinople (in modern Turkey). Wherever the Byzantines lived, the Arabs called them Romans, who were Europeans and mostly Christian.

Once you undertstand where everybody lived, you realize how Judaism and Christianity were deeply steeped in the influences of the powerful pagan tribes.

ghostgeek: Of course Syria is culturally Arabic. It was wrested from the Byzantine Empire by the Arabs, after Muhammad's death, in the seventh century.

ghostgeek: Interesting that you mention powerful pagan tribes. It was Judaism and Christianity that influenced the powerful pagan tribes of Arabia and thus brought Islam into being.

ghostgeek: As for the Byzantine Empire itself, it was the Greek speaking eastern half of the Roman Empire that didn't fall to the Barbarians like the western bit did. Thus, in all but name, the Roman Empire lasted for over 1,5oo years. Not bad for Hicksville on the Tiber.

Zanjan: Pagan religions hijacked whatever they liked best from monotheistic religions, then cooked up the rest with fewer rules and some convenient pleasures. In the hands of men, religion fails because idols and personal desires are more important.

The pagan faiths were so easy to follow, there was no shortage of members. Their gods never got mad as long as you paid them money. Ironically, the desperate leaders in dwindling monotheistic religions felt they had to incorporate pagan concepts to win over converts. Once in, they were never able to fully eradicate them.

Arabians were no strangers to Judaism or Christianity - they just didn't like the conditions of those communities. Their aim was to preserve their traditional pagan beliefs at all costs. However, they were warring too much amongst themselves and doing some beastly things. Neither Judasism or Christianity could help them.

ghostgeek: The way I heard it, those old-time Arabs made a sport of robbing each other, the only condition being that nobody got killed. If that happened there'd be a blood feud that would stretch through time until the hills were dust. Then Muhammad came along and turned those desert pirates into war-winning soldiers who toppled empires.

ghostgeek: As for monotheistic religions, is the world really a better place with them in it?

Zanjan: Let's just say believing in multiple gods is pretty childish. In the ancient world, monotheism and polytheism experienced alternating waves in popularity. Finally, people realized that man-made religions don't work. That's why polytheism died out.

We grew up a little more with the passing of each millennium.

ghostgeek: Sorry but I don't follow your reasoning. Why should believing in multiple gods be any more childish than believing in one?

ghostgeek: Consider your friendly neighbourhood god, God. Why, after an infinity of doing nothing, did this cosmic being suddenly do something? Not, in itself, a very believable career arc in my opinion. At least with the polytheistic gods they were always doing something, even if it was only horseplay.

Zanjan: "Why should believing in multiple gods be any more childish than believing in one? "

Remember, polytheistic religions had a pantheon of gods with one supreme god who reigned above the others; that one was in charge of only a few forces. Reasoning has to start somewhere for practice then gradually correct until it reaches maturity.

Since God is the First Cause, the Source of all created things, logically, there can't be other sources of first causes. Since God is the supreme authority, logically, partner gods divide His authority, able to undermine His creativity, making Him weak.

If each god has power and authority over one domain, the use of their powers would conflict with other domains (because they're ignorant of the other). Ergo, the gods would battle against each other. In the end, one cancels out the other.

As you can see, polytheism pictured the gods as being humans but with superpowers - that's a bad combination!

People often give things they like a human name - I've named my vehicles, pets, and houseplants; and, occasionally, I've loudly threatened them all using harsh warnings. Who can't identify with that? Naming them confirms my long term relationship with them.

Of course, I know my car doesn't have feelings but sometimes it does what I ask of it, even when I ask for too much. I suppose it would be quite natural to thank the car god, seeing as I have no idea how on earth the car managed to perform, given the conditions where the car manual says it shouldn't. It must have had invisible help.

Being a modern individual, I'd often felt that mysterious help came from my guardian angels, not a particular god. Just like on earth, what good are the souls who've passed on, if not to help others in dire circumstances? Mind over matter. We need explanations.

From polytheism to monotheism, the time must come when we throw away our dolls and deal with the living reality.

ghostgeek: How can you say God is the First Cause when this deity passes all human understanding? Without knowledge, no opinion can be ventured.

ghostgeek: Indeed, how can you say anything about it, including whether it exists?

ghostgeek: As for the polytheistic gods, their world mirrors ours. Thus they are a better model for what might exist in heaven than a single deity existing in limbo.

ghostgeek: Humans with superpowers are also a bad combination but that is what scienced has gifted the world, so why not with gods?

ghostgeek: Ever wondered if your car is the Son of Man? A material object under the guidance of the celestial Son of God. If you believe God walked the earth in times past, it should be easy to accommodate in your understanding of things.

Zanjan: "when this deity passes all human understanding?"

It means His essence is incomprehensible and His wisdom is inscrutable, not that He can't be known. We understand what a First Cause is - it's the origin of all causes, the Source of all things. That doesn't require an opinion.

" how can you say anything about it, including whether it exists?"

We can relate to it via His manifested attributes. When God created us, He gave us the faculty of intellect - that power to understand what those attributes are. We see them all around us; man exhibits these same virtues to some degree so we can appreciate them.

"As for the polytheistic gods, their world mirrors ours."

They're an invention of man; therefore, the only thing you perceive them to reflect is the paint from the end of the squirrel brush. They're false idols with no life of their own. Humans have human heroes, whom they adore and treat as if they were gods.

How many were the enraptured women who fainted at the in-person sighting of Elvis! If Elvis was in heaven, those women certainly couldn't go there.

"that is what scienced has gifted the world, so why not with gods?"

Surely you realize that some of the polytheistic gods were harbingers of wicked destruction. Mostly guys love that kind of stuff; the better things blow up, the more thrilled the fellas are. Naturally, they had to configure them with an ugly face, some claws, extra arms,,etc, so they'd look fierce as possible. Why have a satan when you can whip up such a grand variety of alien beasts?

The problem with that system is there were no "Clean-up" gods so they gave that domain to the women. One day, a woman said to her man, "See this mop handle and stick it where the sun don't shine". The rest is history.

Zanjan: " Ever wondered if your car is the Son of Man?"

Now you're just being rude.
Reminds me of a time when I was in a meeting with some religious people; I excitedly mentioned that God answered my prayer. One of the believers tested my sanity, asking "So, you think God answers YOUR prayers? " I replied, "Yes, don't you?" True story.

God doesn't walk the earth - man walks with God.

ghostgeek: First off, if you believe the Bible, God did walk the earth but He gave up doing so when He discovered what riffraff He'd created.

ghostgeek: Second, I apologize if I've upset you over your car but I've been pondering the Son of Man conundrum lately and I guess it's having an effect. The big brains have got themselves into a right pickle over the term but it seems simple enough to me. Jesus was the Son of Man, the earthly component of the combo, and Christ, the Son of God, the heavenly dude in charge.

All-in-all, a bit like a driver behind the wheel of a car. What you see speeding towards you as you dive out of the way is acres of metal and glass and maybe a smudge of something round. The smudge can seem mighty insignificant as the engine howls and the tyres screech but it's actually the driver in control.

A car is a good metaphor for the Jesus Christ of Mark's Gospel because the Son of God changes steeds at the end of the narrative and comes roaring back in 70 AD as Titus, Vespasian's son.

ghostgeek: Can your God think? If the answer is, "Yes!" then God is not the only thing that's always been around. Time has as well.