Where is God When You Need Him? (Page 2)

Zanjan
Zanjan: "Who ever said God is responsible for anything?"

Um...God did. He's the Creator and the Father of all men. Our existence depends on Him. As Creator, God can easily dispense with all of us; but, as Father, He has a relationship with those who love Him, which requires nurturing to sustain.

A father doesn't break his promises or abandon his duty to his children. God is Sovereign; as King, He's responsible for His subjects - that is, to establish social order, health, protection, happiness and prosperity. The Sovereign decides both reward and discipline.

Our place is as servants. We pay Him tribute and taxes for the good of all. Rightly so, since God never sleeps or falls down on the job.

Unconditional love is the power that understands the reality of a soul's station and its needs - God's Grace is the generous bestowal of enlightenment on particular individuals who couldn't comprehend that power. Grace is an elegant act of 'allowance'.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: My mother is ninety and in severe pain when she moves. Why is this supposed God punishing her? She has hurt nobody.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: If it's punishment, then she deserves it, having brought it on herself. You don't know everything about her.

Otherwise, the discomfort will help her to let go of this world, increasing her desire to move on with fewer regrets. Age has nothing to do with it - if she got that far without continual pain, she was fortunate. The joy of total relief can't be over-estimated.

That reminds me - the clerk in the local drugstore, who has been employed there full time for as long as I can remember, celebrated her 85th birthday yesterday. I was flabbergasted! She works mostly to fend off boredom.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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chronology
chronology: wow, am staying away from the computer screen, because it is going to expload when ghost reads the above. zan that is one cold comment you just made.

Reminds me of when a hundred U.S. Marines were killed when they were carrying out Humanitarian Food Distribution in Lebennon back in the 1980s Some said 'they knew the risks' those were young Marines helping starving people.

Cold zan, really cold, and that is ghosts mom
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I think you misunderstood, Chron. It was Ghost who interpreted her pain as punishment, not me. So, if it IS a punishment, that means it's a *corrective discipline* - what good would that serve if one doesn't know what crime it's linked to? Ghost has ice in his veins and I don't expect that to melt anytime soon.

I don't get the impression that Ghost was ever a marine - he's never said. By the way, I'd like to have a word with his mom.


Ed> added the third sentence for clarity.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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chronology
chronology: ghost has never once said he was an ex U.S. Marine, I have never even suggested he was, zan your mind works in a different way to everyone els it seems.

I think ghost is avoiding commenting till he calms down after your insensitive comments about his mom.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Well, he asked. We're all unique in some way.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Zanjan, you claim God exists, so please tell me why an old woman must suffer? She is a believer, unlike me, so why isn't this God you so liberally tell us about helping her? Why doesn't He step in when doctors and nurses have nothing more to offer? Why doesn't He make her pain relief WORK?

As far as I can see, the only answer the faithful can offer to questions like I've posed above is to say that suffering is divine punishment for some supposed crime. Well I tell you, my mother has not committed some heinous crime, and does not deserve to live out her final days in agony.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: What I find chilling about the faithful is their arrogant assumption that they alone are on the path to heaven. That certainty robs them of their humanity towards others.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "please tell me why an old woman must suffer?"

For the same reason a young woman must suffer. He who has suffered the most comes closest to God. Personally, I'm an expert sufferer - many, many years in the making - suffering of all kinds. Physically, there's been no let up except for a few hours here and there.

I've thought of it as an endurance test that keeps me centered, strong and mindful without much complaint - I know how to work through it. Mind over matter; albeit, I did complain when I ripped a kidney open. Anybody would.

I'm a believer too but I don't ask God for things that are contrary to His desire. If doctors can't give me a working solution, then I'm resigned to my fate and count my blessings. God won't place a burden on anyone greater than they can bear. I can hold up.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: One is well aware of consequences to actions; some think they can escape but justice is swift. No one was meant to have a cushy life - we'd wither very quickly if that were the case. Scientific experiments have proven this to be true - we need challenge to create strength.

Often it happens that those who've lived a smooth life as a young person, wont as an elderly person and vice versa. We all get a fair shake. I got my hardest knocks as a youth - looking back, I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. It was perfect.

"suffering is divine punishment for some supposed crime. "

Well, I've never said that. If we've suffered needlessly, God will compensate us for that. You know, sometimes God answers secret desires, although they weren't actually prayers.

By the way, at 90 years old, the body falls apart - it's not pleasant or comfortable but some people still want to live that long. That sounds absurd to me. Personally, I was good to move on at 40 since I wont have family to look after me.

" my mother has not committed some heinous crime, and does not deserve to live out her final days in agony. "

I sort of agree with this - too many drugs extend life but at a horrid price. Fortunately, Canada now has legal, doctor assisted death (euthanasia) - about time! I wouldn't let a dog die the way they let some people die. You should ask your Mom if she'd support that.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: There's nothing wrong with being on the path to heaven - just like there's nothing wrong with being brainy. We're not going to dumb down to make others feel better about themselves.

There are no guarantees one will make it through the pearly gates but people act as if everyone does. "Well, honey, she's in heaven now" - how the heck do *they* know??
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Yes, my mother is old, but that's no reasond for a compassionate God to make her suffer. On the other hand, if there were no "compassionate God," everything would be explained. Either God not existing, or Him being the biggest bastard in existence, would explain fully my Mother's predicament.
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chronology
chronology: ghost, the most disturbing aspect of the religious whackjobs ideas about illness is when it involved children. I remember when I was younger and reading of a poor apalchian teenage girl who was in agony on crutches because her parents would not allow her to be given treatment the poor kid was suffering every day. I remember saying 'why don't Federal Agents just kick the maniacs door down and take the poor girl to hospital' ? But back then SWAT Teams were few and far between, and who knows what these people would do when FBI Agents came through the door.

Tens of thousands of American children have suffered like this. A U.S. Air Force Doctor has taken up the kids plight and she is doing all she can to help the kids.

It really mystifies me what kind of person would let a child suffer like that. This suffering still goes on today. If people will not act themselves, then you can only hope people will support and Federal Agents who have to forcebly remove the suffering children to take them to hospital.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Ghost, ask your mother what she thinks. Does she want to die soon? Or does she want to live another 25 wrinkled years? Does she want to die privately and suddenly in her sleep or, after getting her affairs in order, awake and able to see her tearfully concerned loved ones surrounding her bed and holding her hand? Which choice is more compassionate?

Is God going to do what she's praying for...... or what you want? Come back and tell us her answer.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Chron, we all have a responsibility towards children, whether they're related to us or not. If we hear of a child being beaten by his parents, we need to call the authorities. People don't because they don't give a crap OR they fear the parents will vengefully come back on them.

Some parents are just stupid. Not long ago, in the news, a child needlessly died because the parents diagnosed him with the croup, and they're not doctors. They used some natural herb to treat the fever but the child had spinal meningitis. The parents went to prison. In a court tape, the dad definantly said they can't be shuffling their kids off to emerge every time they get the sniffles. This was in the USA, where people often don't have health insurance. But hey, they saved a few bucks.

Prospective parents should be required to take a course and pass a test for a license to bring up children, just like foster parents do. How can you call yourself a parent if you refuse to put money aside to care for them??

In my work, there was a married developmentally delayed couple we were assisting. They really wanted to have children and were trying hard to get pregnant. They just liked the idea and had no clue what that entailed. So, we got them a mechanical doll they had to live with for two weeks and parent - it did everything a real baby does, and they couldn't keep up. They just couldn't accept they'd failed so kept trying.

After a couple years and no pregnancy, the husband went for a fertility test. Thank God he was sterile!! They had thought about a donation but the doctor told the wife if they had a baby it would die. Finally, they accepted that.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I also think we have a certain responsibility to adults around us as well, be they relatives or not. This is why we pay taxes to care for them.

That doesn't mean we can just dump people off at the government's door, saying it *your* problem now. It's because society has carelessly done that, our taxes are so high and so is the crime rate.

The government has some rehabilitative programs but these cant work miracles. It's comparable to people who have terminal cancer, flying off to Mexico to visit Pablo of the Rusty Knife for an expensive last minute cure. But that horse has already left the barn.

God, on the other hand, is smarter - He has given us FREE preventative programs, if anybody cares to listen. And you ask 'Where is He when you need Him???'
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: What my mother thinks is plain and simple. She thinks parking her bum on the commode is a step too far. It's the small things that loom large when you're in pain.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Then buy her some Depends! (or the equivalent ) In our country, seniors get a certain number of paks free per month; if they use more, they're cheap to buy.

Doesn't sound like you asked her the questions. Are you afraid to talk about death? Your Mom shouldn't be if she's a believer.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: By the way, what happened that she failed to impress YOU to be a believer as well?
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: She wants to die in her own bed. That's all that matters to me.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I knew you'd skirt those questions. Just needed the evidence. Yes, we CAN know some things without a shred of evidence - that's how it is when you're tuned into God's wave length.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: By the way, do you know anybody who wants to die in a fiery highway crash or falling off a cliff, or for a worthy cause? If you do, that would be a rare and interesting person to talk to.
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chronology
chronology: Hmm people should always be careful how they answer that question zan.

In the Movie 'Prometheus' David asks a scientist how far he would go to discover the truth about something, the scientist answered 'all the way no doubt about it' david then slipped a substance into his drink without him seeing to see the effect it would have on him. The substance killed the scientist and infected his girl friend with an alien pregnancy.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Good thing you warned us about that.

So, you believe in "tempting fate", as they call it? I think if it's something you truly want, you can probably make that happen.

When I was young, I'd heard that the old Chinese had a special thing they did when they felt it was their most practical time to go - they simply turned their face to the wall and died. Snap, just like that. Seems to be a lost art. Nowadays, when people lose the will to live, it's a long and slow withering.

I've done some research into formerly undeveloped countries; their peoples seemed to have certain abilities/powers we don't have (if we ever did) as a kind of compensation. Our forebearers didn't like to be a burden on others - it was important to them to be useful.

There's one very remote tribe in the Amazon, whose members never get sick or experience disease. They attribute that to merrily drinking some concoction of fermented spit soup, then puking it all up a few hours later.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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