The religious bigots march onward in their futile fight against gay marriage (Page 2)

shadowline
shadowline: "all that doesn't change the fact that you're seeking to deny tax paying US citizens their civil rights.

that's the bottomline, cinderfella"

Cinderfella? What's that supposed to mean? Anyway, the point remains the same. Embezzlers, bigamists, alcoholics, and people with a sexual interest in minors, are also "tax-paying US citizens". That doesn't in itself mean that they have the inalienable right to be embezzlers, bigamists, alcoholics, and people with a sexual interest in minors. That calls for some thought.
9 years ago Report
0
pyroclastic flo
pyroclastic flo: you're equating being Gay w/ being sick or criminal. i can't dignify your idiocy w/ any further response.
(Edited by pyroclastic flo)
9 years ago Report
0
The13th
The13th: I think the world is divided by yet another grave issue, the 1st shot probably been fired long ago. Lots of people's life are going to be affected by this in very bad way and I feel it will make today's grand standing of upholding civil right as laughable. Mr. Civil Right is the first to run when dagger and sword start to cut through lung, liver, kidney and instestine. Kids get exploited, destroyed in the process.
9 years ago Report
0
pyroclastic flo
pyroclastic flo: "Mr" Civil Rights isn't "running". "Mr" Civil Right has already stated her position on this matter and has now lost interest in feeding congenitally stupid hate filled trolls.

may you receive all that you deserve in life.

(Edited by pyroclastic flo)
9 years ago Report
0
The13th
The13th: No big deal, its 1914 all over again. I am used to it.
9 years ago Report
0
shadowline
shadowline: "you're equating being Gay w/ being sick or criminal. i can't dignify your idiocy w/ any further response"

Well, that's one way to side-step the point. As I was saying, no one and nothing has proved that homosexuality is anything other than a maladjustment and a form of psychological failure. And I rather think they would have, by now, if the proof was there to be found. It is merely fashion, so far, to insist that homosexuality is inborn, physical in basis, and altogether healthful. It may be those things, but no one knows that it is. Rushing, in that situation, to legitimize and legalize it, isn't a responsible proceeding, in many people's opinion (which is, of course, totally ignored - Western democracies ARE democracies, after all).
9 years ago Report
0
wayne elliott
wayne elliott: Religion is a choice, sexuality is not. "Christain vision" is an oxymoron. Same sex consenting adults deserve the same rights as any other human being. I am still seeking the answer to the question of how granting marriage rights to gays and lesbians will hurt anyone else.
9 years ago Report
1
davesdatahut
davesdatahut: So, Shadowline, are we to conclude from your post that you see homosexuality as a maladjustment, perhaps even a criminal one, as well a form of psychological failure and an unhealthy behavior that should be declared illegal, while those who support gay rights are rushing to judgment? Does that about sum it up? If so, upon what do you base these views? And please do not talk about how a lot of people think homosexuality is a perversion and the work of the devil. i want to know what YOU base this on, if indeed these are your views.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
9 years ago Report
1
davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Boyz, can you explain your reference to "1914 all over again?"
And, to clarify, i never ever referred to Christians as bigots. Ever. The bigots are the people who would deny gays the marital rights that civil law confers on straights. That many of these bigots are doing their bigotry based on religious claims makes a lot of them faith-based bigots. Some are Christians. Some are Jews. Some are Muslims. But they are not bigots because they are Christian, Jewish or Muslim. They are bigots because they would deny gays a certain civil right simply because they are gay.
Matter of fact, if they really applied their religious teachings to this issue - you know, that stuff about love and acceptance - they probably wouldn't be bigots at all! But that's not how religion has gone since humanity foisted it upon itself.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
9 years ago Report
1
shadowline
shadowline: I don't believe I said any of that, dave. What I said was, that it is commonly assumed that homosexuality is inborn and physical in basis, and that THEREFORE it must be natural and healthful. And I said that that has never been proved. Proving it shouldn't be difficult, but, it seems, as a matter of fact, to be impossible.

You might take note that I did not make any references to the devil, and that I am not saying anything about religion. I do say that your firing off the word bigot as often as you can work it in is unfair and unwarranted. Plenty of psychologists are of the opinion that homosexuality is a maladjustment. That doesn't make them bigots.

If my personal opinion really matters to you, I agree with Carl Jung that homosexuality is a symptom of the failure to individuate completely. It happens when a personality fails to successfully assume the gender identity, which then becomes permanently sectioned off from the psyche, and the individual is condemned (no value judgement implied) to go in search of it in others of his or her own sex, for the rest of his or her life. That is a misfortune. It is not a crime, and it is not a form of perfect normality.

It is false, therefore, to regard homosexuality as a matter of rights, as it would be false to regard remaining drunk for weeks on end a right for alcoholics, or habitually stealing when the opportunity arose a right for kleptomaniacs. As long, that is, as it remains conjecture only that homosexuality is inborn and physical in basis, as I have also said more than once.
9 years ago Report
0
davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Shadowline, from what source do you get this information that "plenty of psychologists" think that homosexuality is a maladjustment? Indeed, homosexuality has been removed from the list of behaviors once considered to be a mental illness. So who are these psychologists who think this? Are we talking fringe therapists, talking with one hand on their bibles? Or flocks of mainstream psychologists?
Moving on, what about denying gays the same right to marry as heteros is anything but bigoted? It is a textbook definition of bigotry. It is denying a class of law-abiding adults a right under the law that is given to straights, based on nothing more than who gays choose to love and marry. It is almost exactly what society did to blacks before we fixed that nasty piece of history. If there is a single valid reason under the law to deny gay the right to marry, state it But i don't think you can.
You bizarrely try to equate homosexuality with drunkenness and thievery, as if they have anything remotely in common, which they don't. At the same time, you talk about how it has never been proven that homosexuality is healthful. But what does this have to do with the right of gays to marry? Until someone proves that being gay is healthy, they should be denied equal protection under the law? Really???
What about straights who like to have anal sex, just like gays. Or have oral sex, just like gays. Or even gay sex! So what? Should we deny straights the right to marry if they like to have anal sex? What does this have to do with one class of citizens being denied the rights conferred on another? The reasons you are offering are, at best, red herrings borne of society's irrational fear of gays, like they are some kind of boogeymen.
We are talking about equal protection under the law, and the bigotry that blocks that from happening. The pathetic bigotry.
\Let em get married for chrissake .Why is this such a big deal?
PS - Jung was a douchebag when it came to his anachronistic palaver on this subject. I mean, really, what the fuck does "the failure to individuate completely" mean. Maybe I'll go into work tomorrow and tell the gay guy who sits across from me that he needs to go home, break up with his boyfriend, and see if he can't take a better shot at individuating. Good grief.
And even if Jung was right. So what. The U.S. Constitution does now allow the denial of rights based on whether someone has individuated up to snuff.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
9 years ago Report
1
chronology
chronology: davedata. Yes Jung can be quite trying. I remember one time reading his thoughts about cooking a Starfish, this was in one of his books on Alchemy, after about ten pages I suddenly thought, 'hey what is this 'Star Fish cooking all about'. I moved on to another of his topics.

davedata, you keep railing against 'Religious bigots'. Well the Bible has some pretty severe things to say about people who reject God's instructions. One of those instructions is to not engage in same sex erotica. The sentence from God for this the Bible explicity says is to be burned and tortured with worms and pain and fire for ever and ever. I am sure what the United Nations would say to such treatment of human beings, they would be horrified to say the least. but Jesus Christ Himself warns people about this. That is why 'believers' often drift on to Wire with warning and whatever. Am sure you would say 'how can anyone believe something so horrible could done to a human being just because they love someone of the same sex'., But that is what it says.
9 years ago Report
0
davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Thie bible can say whatever it wants. Jesus, too. But we are a nation of civil laws. Not religious laws.
There are many great things about a democracy. One is that people can believe in whatever religious mysticism or superstition they want, and the government can't stop them or even hinder them. Another one is that they can't foist those beliefs on people who might not believe in them when it comes to the enforcement of rights under civil law.
It comes down to this: You want a theocracy? Or you want a democracy? I'm glad we have the latter. And laws preventing faith-based bigots from stealing the show. Not to mention psycho-babblers who rave on about incomplete individuation.

For what it's worth, how about a little following of god's alleged instruction to love thy neighbor as thyself...and not to treat other people like shit just because they are a bit different. Would you like to give that one a try?
(Edited by davesdatahut)
9 years ago Report
1
shadowline
shadowline: No, it is not bigotry. Give that word a rest. Try showing that you can discuss a subject without insults and cheap accusations. "Like to have anal sex" - that's a charming formulation. I wouldn't have thought that it took more than a modicum of common decency, not to mention maturity, to see that anal sex is a gross violation of the integrity of the human body. Treating that as if it were perfectly normal sexual relations is a path for a dying world, no matter who is engaging in it.

But even that isn't the point. The point is that a man who is incapable of relating to a woman, and whose incapacity that way has devolved into the pathetic willingness to indulge that lack of manhood, is simply a failure as a man. The same thing is true of a woman who is incapable of relating to a man. Being a failure isn't a crime, but, when a society is producing as much of that failure as ours is, that society is in receipt of a warning sign that something is seriously wrong. "Let's treat it as if it were a race, and pretend that failure is success" is about as unwise a response as can be imagined.

As to the psychologists I referred to, I was simply thinking of psychologists I have met, and psychologists they knew. That wasn't a million people, but I was impressed by the professional opinion.

Calling Jung a "douchebag" is not much of an answer to what he had to say, and about that you obviously know nothing. Individuation means maturation, and if that is too sophisticated a term for you, it means growing up. Jung's analysis of homosexuality is the wisest thing I have read on the subject. When he observed that prolonged immaturity was a problem in the modern Western societies in his time, Jung pointed straight to the growth in the incidence of homosexuality as a symptom of that. He was right. If he was not right, someone should demonstrate it. You certainly haven't demonstrated it, with your insults and cheap shots.
9 years ago Report
0
chay chayi
chay chayi: If you want to see if someone is wrong, see if he uses insults, then you know he's wrong
9 years ago Report
0
chay chayi
chay chayi: God's way is not hate, not trolls, not bigot, those sinned people are ruined, sick, mental ill people
9 years ago Report
0
pyroclastic flo
pyroclastic flo: moralizing theocratic morons whine about insults and cheap shots when that's all they've got when they present their excuses (however couched in officious language) for seeking to deny fellow citizen their civil rights. they're not only self righteous bigots but whimpering thin skinned hypocrites as well. i've felt insulted by such ilk and i'm not even gay.
(Edited by pyroclastic flo)
9 years ago Report
0
The13th
The13th: All I know is, every time human being draw a line that says you and I are different, people eventually get killed. Like Catholic vs protestant, Muslim vs Christian, Communist vs Non-communist, Serb vs Croatia, this black people against that black people in Somalia(?) and now gay vs non-gay. What will happen is, people start to draw line, form turf, in work, in life, in business, in politics. People will get disadvantaged or menuveured out, or gain advantage or menuveured in, because they are gay or non-gay. Bad feeling accumulate, survival is threatened, killing started and boilovered. This is a real world war because while lots of us have managed to escape many wars because we are neither muslim nor christian, neither communist nor capitalist, we are either gay or non-gay and the battle line has been drawn for us. This is a war without ending, trench warfare grinding a many nation to its knees. I love to respect people civil right, but lets put that aside and dont leave home without bringing your axe because we all know this - either you kill or get killed.
9 years ago Report
0
pyroclastic flo
pyroclastic flo: maybe you're just another barely evolved territorial primate requiring an enemy to battle so to vent your ape-ish aggression and Gay folks are easy targets.

please! evolve!
(Edited by pyroclastic flo)
9 years ago Report
0
The13th
The13th: They drew 1st blood.
9 years ago Report
0
pyroclastic flo
pyroclastic flo: how did Gay folks draw "1st blood"? by being who they are and demanding equal rights under secular law in a country in which they pay taxes and vote and for which they fight and die for defending in war?

i'm not gonna be putting anyone's civil rights "aside" since there might be some group of gawd driven misogynists who would like to put MY civil rights aside due to my gender and there's plenty of "sacred scripture" to justify their desire to oppress me.
(Edited by pyroclastic flo)
9 years ago Report
0
The13th
The13th: You have to let me make judgement for myself based on what I see in my part of the world. I afraid they have. The rest are just self defense. What choice have I got?
9 years ago Report
0
pyroclastic flo
pyroclastic flo: you have the choice to live and let live and to treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated.

it's truly just that simple.
(Edited by pyroclastic flo)
9 years ago Report
2
The13th
The13th: I love to live in your neighborhood, it must have been full of real nice people, gay or not gay.
9 years ago Report
0
pyroclastic flo
pyroclastic flo: i've lived in a variety of places, some of which were inhabited by racists, misogynists and other assorted haters. the attitudes and antics of my less evolved neighbors hasn't caused me to join in their idiocy.
(Edited by pyroclastic flo)
9 years ago Report
2