John of Patmos, now this is interesting!

Cenababy: A man named John found himself “on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” While “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day,” he heard a loud voice instruct him to “write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches.” Presumably, like many ancient Israelite prophets, John receives his visions while in a trance or some state of altered consciousness. What John saw and wrote has become the most influential — and controversial — vision in the history of Christianity. As Elaine Pagels observes in her Revelations, John’s apocalypse has served as source material for John Milton, Julia Ward Howe, Michelangelo, and Tim LaHaye. At the same time, as late as the early 1500s******* Martin Luther wanted to remove Revelation (and the Book of Jude) from the New Testament canon, though the reformer subsequently changed his mind.

Also noted by a theological expert he says this in regards to Revelation, The book presents itself as “the apocalypse of Jesus Christ.” One might think of it as Jesus Christ’s unveiling or uncovering of both the present and the future.

Further studies show that the technical name for Revelation is "The Book Of Jesus" also noting "Jesus Wrath". Interesting that Romans is called God's Wrath.

Further along in this study: The Book of Revelation consists of a series of visions, centered around theophanies of Jesus Christ and visions of judgment and warfare between God and Satan. Before he receives any instructions about what he should write, John sees “one like a son of man” arrayed in glory. After John writes the epistles to the seven churches, he receives a marvelous vision of the heavenly throne and sees “a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain.” In the book’s nineteenth chapter, John sees heaven open and he sees a rider on a white horse, “clad in a robe dipped in blood.

CONTINUED

Cenababy: Note how the theologian says, God and Satan, Son of Man, Jesus Christ then Lamb.

Interesting that in my other study about Daniel, Son of Man was Jesus (mortal self/man) but did not deny his Diety. The Lamb ofcourse we all know is Jesus (his sacrificed self if you will) and Jesus is the one that defeats satan, and in the above he is called God.

HydroMan: yes Martin Luther wanted to remove Revelation as well as Jude, Hebrews and other letters. In his Bible, the Luther Bible, he placed these letters seperately in the apendix

Cenababy: why thought Hydro? Why would you want to remove something out, that is important?

chronology: Revelation is the most violent blood drenched book ever written in any religion. For me it is also the most accurate depiction of end times you will find anywhere.

Some folks believe we are on the doorstep of the appearance of Jesus Christ with such prophesies as; 'and no one shall buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast' obviously some kind of bar code or pin number. 'And he shall make fire come down from Heaven' either a Drone Fleet or low earth orbit Satalie weapons. 'And the statue was given the breath of life' obviously Artificial Intelligence making the gigantic Robot or Android appear living. 'And the Horsemen had teeth like Lions and stings like scorpions'' at one time the 200.000.000 man army was speculated to be the modern Chinese Army, but like some of us say 'how many Chinese men have you met with big lion like teeth and scorpion stingers? obviously what is being described is Transhuman Hybrids bred for the Beast to use to conquer the world.

'How long until these weapons are possible? you may ask About 10 years ago. Some folks say Pentagon Staffers are already trying to work out how to fight against flesh eating hybrids they may face on the battlefields of the future.

Revelation may seem far fetched to some people, but that is because they have not kept up with News.

Cenababy: well frankly Revelation is a dream of past and future, and the animal references are symbolic, I don't think it means drones, but could be wrong. The News let's us know all that do not have blinders on *(such as the Iran deal) what is actually going on, Don't believe it today the UN announced that the rumors of the Iranian Leader under heavy sanctions DID in FACT go to Russia July 24 th to do weapons deals with Russia. POINT, open your eyes and your brains, and get it as many do!

chronology: I get it. You think the Bible is a fairy tales of dreams and fairy stories. Well most other people today would agree with you so you at least have the weight of being in the vast majority.

I spoke to a Vicar one time about Revelation and he thought the book was just the ramblings of a senile old man. Personally I think it is all true from beginning to end.

Cenababy: where did you get that? I happen to believe the BIBLE. how can you surmise that from what I said. good grief buddy, read again and if you don't understand something, please do ask!

chronology: Ok, Ok I get it, you think Jesus is like Santa, and Easter Bunnies are real. Let's leave it there, you have got me checking the chimney to see if Jesus is coming down with a big sack on his back. Wait a minute that's Santa, with easter bunnies or reindeer. whatever.

Cenababy: chron, you TOTALLY missed my point totally! the end. I never once said Revelation is just a dream, please do put your glasses on. the original article MIGHT just give you a clue as to what I do think and /or agree with.

chronology: this is boring.

Zanjan: The problem with most Christians is they have a dismal background in religious history, yet think they can interpret "Revelations" without it. Of course, the same is true for those who try to interpret Nostradamus, imagining his riddles are about the future of the whole planet, considering Europeans, at that time, didn't even know there was a Western Hemisphere.

The only reason Christians admit to living in the "latter days" is because non-Christians have forced them to look at the undeniable truth. They had to, since they couldn't hold up in any debates about it and didn't want to look like fools. I well remember how they used to resist - it was quite comical.

But really, they only gave a begrudging inch, wishing it was everyone else's latter days too. Someone should tell them this doesn't work for atheists, agnostics and pagans - nothing has changed for those groups.

Zanjan: Back to John - he was well aware that the 'beginning and end' are ONE. What he saw of the end of the Christian dispensation was the same as it was for the Jews, including the mark of a different dispensation.

John did, indeed, have a vision - that doesn't make him a Christian prophet.

Cenababy: ummm never said this was for athiest number one, this is for christians (and anyone who reads it) but doesn't mean it is theirs. secondly never said John was a christian, but let's find out shall we. as we know the jews wrote and some converted!

Zanjan: Go ahead, tell John he wasn't a Christian when he wrote that. He's listening.

Talk about re-inventing the wheel!

TheDoctor394: :-) I kind of think John was a Christian...

Cenababy: I didn't say he was or wasn't. OK

Zanjan: "but let's find out shall we"

Looks like you're the one who's lost him......

Cenababy: no not at all...just a statement to end it!

Zanjan: Good.

TheDoctor394: I think it's pretty much a given that all the disciples (except Judas Iscariot, of course) were Christian at the birth of the church, on the Day Of Pentecost, so that would have included John. Revelation would suggest that as well, and also the three letters attributed to John, although I don't know that it's completely accepted that he did necessarily write all of them.

Cenababy: Yes Doc, good one !

Zanjan: The apostles would not have been His disciples if they didn't believe in Him. If they believed in Him, they were Christian. The day He spoke to them, saying 'come with me', and they did, that's the day they became Christian. While Christian tradition has the birth of the church on the Day of Pentacost, I don't see it that way.

Since the church was Christ's bride, the birth of the church would have been the day Jesus made His declaration - the day His ministry began was the day of His wedding to the church. He had the Holy Spirit in Him - Christ and the church were inseparable.

The day of Pentacost, however, was the day the Holy Spirit visited the Apostles AGAIN - that has to do with the resurrection. The term 'resurrection' means that which appeared dead is brought back to life again. Christ had the power to achieve that while he was on earth and in the hereafter.

One can be a Christian but not have the Holy Spirit with them - there have always been some Christians who have no holy life in their spirits. Remember all the bloody popes?

As for Judas Iscariot; Christ chose him and made no mistake. Judas was indeed a Christian, even in the hereafter.

Cenababy: Judas was chosen by Jesus, because Jesus knew his heart, he knew he would turn Jesus over for the planned death!

Secondly, when John the Baptist baptized Jesus, the heavens opened and the Holy Spirit descended down upon him! That is the start of his Mission!

Zanjan: Agreed.

Cenababy: Zan, what is interesting is that the differences in Jews. For instance the Messainic Jews have a whole different way of looking at christianity, for example i was in the religion room, they spew on the word Christian, they do NOT agree they are Christian, and if you call them Christian they get offended! Christian is a title -= follower of Christ. They also claim the word Christian is not in bible , then you know me, I whip out verses about it!

I just don't get how some people do not understand that the Apostles (may have been born Jews) but to follow Christ they were Christian.

So Zan, LOL, try telling that to a Messainic Jew!