John of Patmos, now this is interesting! (Page 2)

TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: I don't think we can say for sure when the disciples individually became believers, but I certainly don't see how they did as soon as they started following Jesus. How could they have been? It would have taken them a while to understand who Jesus was, why He was there, what He was doing and suchlike.

And, while I think there is a case for stating that Christianity started with Jesus' ministry, surely it's clear that the birth of the Christian church, the gathering of the actual movement, started on the Day of Pentecost.

And there's no way a person can become a Christian without the work of the Holy Spirit. For example, Ephesians 1: 13,14 states: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

And I also don't see how Judas Iscariot was saved. Jesus Himself condemned him in a pretty heavy way. In reference to who would betray Him, Jesus said in Mark 14:20,21: "20 “It is one of the Twelve,” he replied, “one who dips bread into the bowl with me. 21 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Excellent post Doc, and I agree about Judas, just didn't say that. I try not to condemn, but you are very right in that Jesus DID. when you reject and go away from Jesus, when you stab him in the back, I think you are done!
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Cena, we never had a "Messianic Jews" group in Canada. There was a "Jews for Jesus" movement (at the time, that was an opinion of young people, not a sect) during the hippy era but they didn't consider themselves to be messianic any more than another Jew is.

"Messianic" means ' ardently waiting for the Messiah', believing that time is at hand - all Jews have been waiting for that since B.C. People do tend to misapply words but the group I knew never proposed that Jesus was a messiah, and they were the ones who began the movement.

The 'Jews for Jesus' bunch believed Jesus was a prophet in the same class as the lesser prophets of the house of Israel - that is, as one would Daniel or Issiah, not Moses. They remained following Jewish law, not Christian law and never commemorated Christian Holy Days. It may seem odd they viewed Christianity as a sect of Judaism but technically, the JFJ's were still Jews.

The problem of ignorance - confusing a sect with an independent religion - continues to this day. For example, there are those who insist the Baha'i Faith is a sect of Islam, which is not true but you can't convince them they don't know what they're talking about. They wont stick around to give you a chance to demnostrate what makes the difference - they simply don't want to hear it.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Doctor: " It would have taken them a while to understand who Jesus was, why He was there, what He was doing and suchlike."

Just for the 5000 or so who listened to Him and hemmed and hawed a lot - not for those whom Christ chose. He had a way of revealing Himself to His chosen ones. They'd not need to ruminate over any of that stuff because they were very, very ready (remember John the Baptist had done much to prepare them) - they only had to answer His call. On hearing His Voice, they recognized Him immediately.

Look at it this way, if God were to suddenly speak to you in a loud voice, would you dither around, asking for proofs and pondering over what was in store, or would you instantly throw yourself down, prostrate and say "Whatever your wish is my command'?

By the way, the Holy Spirit was a promise. That means there are conditions on the part of the follower. Those who were the first fruits of Judaism, the first Christians, met those conditions so the Holy Spirit was promised to THEM; they received it and many gave their lives for it - it was no guarantee to all Christians forever and ever.

Jesus never condemned Judas - He actually encouraged him to disclose His location. He could have stopped him but he didn't. Reading the text, it seems more like Jesus was acting like the general of an army, asking for a volunteer. He spoke like a commander who warns the volunteer it's a suicide mission and, honestly, it wont be pretty. Who had the guts? Who could bear this message?

Surely that was the reason Jesus described how a traitor to a beloved feels...which means Judas had loved Jesus. That mission would be as tough as when God asked Abraham to kill his own son - who could do that?? Judas had a conscience and he wasn't insane; if he didn't care, he wouldn't have killed himself....he'd have just fallen back to being a Jew, quite able to live with his choice. Look at the pattern of human behaviour. Such a tragic situation!

Judas has been unnecessarily demonized by Christians for ages due to their lack of understanding, love, compassion and forgiveness. Christ forgave them their sins but they were too stingy to be forgiving of anyone else's! So much for following The Way.

How easy it was for the clergy to coerce followers into believing they knew more than the pure heart.


(Edited by Zanjan)
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Zanjan... In regards to the disciples, I would think it's surely clear, when one reads through the Gospels, that the disciples were far from sure who Jesus was over different parts of His ministry. They were confused by some of the things He said... they could not grasp His prophecies of how He came to die for them... Certainly, something about Jesus grabbed them. He showed authority, He showed great wisdom. And, remember, travelling teachers were common back then, so it was not unusual to become a disciple of someone of that nature. Personally, I can't imagine how anyone could assume, after reading the Gospels, that all the disciples immediately knew exactly who Jesus was when He first called them. They just show so much uncertainty and confusion at varying times.

In regards to Judas, I would ask you what you think Jesus meant when He made that statement in Mark. He was surely referring to Judas himself, since He was talking about the one who would betray Him. And Jesus said it would be better if that betrayer had never been born! What is not being born? Non-existence. So Jesus is saying that something would happen to the betrayer that is worse than never having existed. What else could that be but some kind of Hellish punishment? He could hardly have been talking about salvation in Heaven. What do you think Jesus meant when He said that about Judas?

In regards to the Holy Spirit's work in our salvation, I would also offer Romans 8, which gives very clear teaching on the matter, including this: "But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."

This is followed a bit further on by: "14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.”"
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Doctor, nothing in scripture ever points to the Apostles being uncertain about who Christ was. As His disciples, they were learning about the new Revelation and how they should teach it.

Obviously, no one understood when or how Christ's own prophecies would come to pass - if they did, these wouldn't be a prophecy. They were only certain those things would happen.

Thomas never doubted that - he didn't doubt the resurrection would happen, just doubted that it had already happened. Why? Look at the setting. Grief is very crippling, stopping one in their tracks; with shock, everything goes by in slow mo - it's as if the survivor had died inside and is now being the observer outside the scene, not participating in it.

This is the primary sign of human grief - immediate denial of the news. We don't all go through the same stages of shock nor endure them for the same length of time - Thomas took the longest to recover and they needed him to function again so he had to be comforted in a way that would move him out of the funk.


Judas: do you even know who he was?? Do you think Jesus would be so stupid as to trust a man with the treasury who didn't have sterling integrity?? How often is Judas mentioned after his death? What nasty things have the Apostles said of him before or after his death? What record is there of Judas challenging or bad-mouthing or misrepresenting Christ at any time?

Who fell asleep in the garden? When the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, who ran away and who stayed with Jesus? Does one kiss someone they want to see tortured and killed...or do they kiss someone when presenting a gift to them?

Who denied knowing Jesus? It was Peter, right? Not Judas!

Why did Judas return to the priests and throw the money back at them immediately after his deed? Remember, Judas wasn't greedy or dishonest - he'd been the treasurer. Was it not to let them know he'd been role-playing, and to show *them* up for the filth they were? Clearly, Judas didn't want to remain on this planet without Jesus.........so it is for other humans who want to die because their loved one has passed on. They want to quickly join them in the next world because in this one, they'd been inseparable. Judas's task was conditioned by that.

Most Apostles were martyred by their enemies. At least Judas didn't "fall asleep" at the wheel, like a couple other apostles did. He was very focused.

Grief is hellish punishment and remorse (self-blame) is a stage of grief - could be for anything but it doesn't last forever.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: So are you saying that when Jesus said, "But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”, He was referring to grief?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Yes. Woe is grievous distress and lamentation over a loss; deep sadness is exceedingly, unrelentingly and indescribably painful. It implies that person was a champion of the Son of Man, with no intention of being an enemy.

Whereas, an enemy spends time in the company of other enemies, and joyously cheers when they've inflicted harm on their target. They don't cry from a broken heart.

The Jewish clergy had stepped up the persecution, making it known the Christians were no longer welcome; they put a price on Jesus's head and would eventually apprehend Him so why draw out the agony of having to hide?

They believed that with Jesus out of the way, His little group of followers would be demoralized and disband so no need to bother with them anymore. It was time to take pressure off this newborn Faith.

As you know, Jesus was telling them His time had come. His time to shine in the glory of sacrifice for the truth. He set the example because that was The Way.
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: So you really believe that Jesus was referring to grief.

There's no doubt grief and regret over a terrible deed committed can be a horrible experience, and Judas would have gone through that, no doubt. He was clearly sorry for what he had done.

All the same, as bad as regret and grief can be, surely Jesus' comment was referring to more than just that. "But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Come on... You really think Judas would have been better never having been born (never having existed), rather than go through a period of grief, before dying and spending everlasting life in Heaven? Jesus was saying non-existence is worse than ultimate salvation?
(Edited by TheDoctor394)
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TheDoctor394
TheDoctor394: Just to let people know, I'm off to hospital for the next day or two, so I imagine this thread might have moved on by the time I get back on. :-) God bless all.
(Edited by TheDoctor394)
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Cenababy
Cenababy: God Bless Doc, all the luck
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Doc, well for sure, that verse is pretty clear! I agree.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Doctor, I don't believe in interpretation of scripture - that's precisely how one runs into trouble; it's totally unnecessary. Interpretation twists things to fit one's story mind; it doesn't aim to target and accept reality.

When looking at an ancient event, forensic study is the only correct approach. That study includes good knowledge of classic patterns of human behavior. It also requires applied knowledge of spiritual dynamics. To take a phrase out of context is to run wild with assumption.

Jesus wasn't speaking of salvation; if He'd meant to address that, He'd have used that word 'salvation' or the term "Kingdom of God". It's not His intention to deceive you.

There's an old maxim: 'walk a mile in my moccasins' -> to do is to understand.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: My your visit to the hospital, Doc, be as comfortable and healing as possible.
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