Isaiah 7:14 the virgin birth prophecy

Apokalupto:


More on the Virgin birth concept: Topic: Religion



Almah means maiden "veiled or hidden." A maiden that was veiled or hidden implies chastity automatically. It's as if I said, "the baby is not an adult" and the critics came and said "The word 'Baby' does not mean 'not adult!'" Yes, but no baby can be an adult, its automatically implied. You can take issue with the translation of "virgin" but at the end of the day, we know what it's talking about, that much is sure.

EDIT

THINGS THAT YOU DID NOT ADDRESS INCLUDE:

1."Almah" and its ancient application and understanding, and why an almah was thought/expected to be a virgin.
2.The miraculous supernatural births of Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Samson, Samuel, Ruth.
3.The virgin daughter of Zion who God literally pictures as giving birth.
4.My argument of Isaiah 7:14 by context, which is addressed to the House of David (Messianic line) Not Ahaz
5.The dating of the Septuagint (Way before Christ) and their translation "virgin"

THINGS THAT YOU CHOSE TO TALK ABOUT INCLUDE:

1. Other religions.
2. Insignificant misquotes (sorry about that) you misquoted me as well more than once.
3. Questioning the Jewishness of Dr. Michael Brown (Hes a Jew regardless of his religion. Born of a Jewish mother)
4. Your old argument which never addressed my arguments. (saying woman wear veils when they get married hardly answer the question that it meant she was a assumed a virgin, not assumed shes in a wedding dress, but nice try)

Hope I didn't miss anything.

Poetry- "Again you claim it a fact that Jews translated what you call the OT."

Poetry- "Your OT is not a Jewish text but rather a revised Christian edition."

Poetry- "That said- it is fine by me that you continue to believe your Christian texts."

Oh...here's what I actually said: "After the translation of the Hebrew Torah (We both agree Jews translated the Torah) into Greek the in 282 BC

All the other books were fully translated into Greek as early as 250 BC but not any later than 150 BC.

The eminent Jewish Septuagint scholar Emanuel Tov dates the pre-Christian era manuscript of the Greek translation of Isaiah (LXX which we call the Septuagint) to 170 BC because it contains allusions to historical situations and events that point to the years 170-150 BC."

I know Jews would love to make Christian conspiracies out of this. And just so you know, I believe the Old Testament in Hebrew and in English. : )

Poetry- "I will make this my last post." That's fine, as it's hard to appreciate your style. Have a nice day.

Jaguar Essence: Poetry, well done
Thank you for clarifying this, there're many assumptions and it takes someone who is willing to do the investment in researching as you have done it.

Apokalupto: You're referring Bible translations, the OP did not advocate for a single Bible translate. I refered to the Hebrew word "Almah"

Again, a maiden, or as you put it, "a young woman" that is veiled or hidden denotes chastity. That's the point.

"Anyway- from what I have seen all three words- ‘na’arah’, ‘almah’, and ‘betulah’ have all been translated into Greek to be the same word ‘parthenos’" The OP is not talking about a Greek OT, or Septuagint, which is translation by Jews, not Greeks and not Christians. Ill point out that "betulah" can mean maiden, or as you like to say, "young woman."

"Since you specifically cite Isaiah 7:14- I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read the entire chapter 7 to understand the context rather than picking one verse"

The context has nothing to do with the """definition""" of the word "almah"
But since you mention it, "They joined forces to attempt to conquer Jerusalem. King Ahaz was terrified and G-d sent the prophet Isaiah to reassure him of his divine protection"

So actually Isaiah addressed the house of David (because it IS about the messiah) and in the plural sense, because King Ahaz refused to hear from the Lord who offered to give king Ahaz what seems to obviously be a super natural sign since hes told to ask what ever he wants! What ever from the depths bellow or in the height above! But he refuses.

So Isaiah turns to the house of David, THE MESSIAH PROPHETIC LINE, and says an "almah" a veiled or hidden young woman will give birth to a child and will be called "God with us." Israel is famous for having this name of God "el" in their names. So my question is, if God offered the king basically anything he wanted from the height above to the depths bellow, what part of "just" a young girl having giving birth to a child with "el" in his name a sign? There are plenty of those already in Israel! From the depths bellow or in the height above - nope, turns out there's no sign at all even though God promised one, just a little girl somewhere going to give birth, who would recognize this in all Israel anyway? Nothing stands out, nothing about it is a sign to Israel.

Isa 7:13  "And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?" In other words, God is certainly promising something supernatural, because you can weary men with big requests, but you cannot weary the Almighty God. The following verse God promises the Almah shall give birth. A few verse down we hear about the child.

"They joined forces to attempt to conquer Jerusalem. King Ahaz was terrified and G-d sent the prophet Isaiah to reassure him of his divine protection"

But the scripture says that before this child can even tell the difference between good and evil the land will be forsaken of both of the kings. Your interpretation of the prophecy being about the protection of the king is not in accordance with this.

Isa 7:16  "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."

I know that you will say it was fulfilled in their day, but you wanted context, and this verse shows that interpretation is wrong, the child was never there to help with the war or the king. The scripture NEVER AGAIN mentions Emanuel. All things point towards a supernatural prophecy in the future.

lori100: there have been many virgin births....wiki---Melchizedek[edit]

The Second Book of Enoch contains a section, called Exaltation of Melchizedek, which says that Melchizedek was born of a virgin, Sofonim (or Sopanima), the wife of Nir, a brother of Noah. The child came out from his mother after she had died and sat on the bed beside her corpse, already physically developed, clothed, speaking and blessing the Lord, and marked with the badge of priesthood.
------(btw...the esoteric teaching is that Jesus also was able to speak soon after birth , but only in a language only his mother could understand...).---------"It was said that (Zoroaster's) birth was foretold from the beginning of time, and that the moment he was born, he burst out laughing and the whole universe rejoiced with him." After his birth evil demons tried to destroy him, but with Ahura Mazda's protection, he survived all attempts on his life.[20]------ But according to later tradition, Zoroaster's mother, Dughdova, was a virgin when she conceived Zoroaster by a shaft of light.[20] ------------Romulus and Remus, the legendary twin founders of the city of Rome, were said to have been born to a Vestal Virgin, Rhea Silvia. Rhea Silvia had been forced to become a Vestal Virgin against her will and claimed to have been impregnated through divine intervention.------------------“The Emperor Augustus was praised as the Savior of the world …[but] the idea of Savior was not unique or original with Augustus himself. Before him the same title was given to Seleucid and other Hellenistic kings. Throughout this period there were frequent longings for a savior from the present troubles.” Augustus was said to have had a miraculous birth and a childhood filled with many portents and signs. A few months before he was born a portent was observed at Rome which gave warning that nature was pregnant with a king for the Roman People. "Thereupon the Senate in consternation decreed that no male child born that year should be reared; but those whose wives were with child saw to it that the decree was not filed in the treasury, since each one appropriated the prediction to his own family." -----------According to tradition of the Catholic church, the Virgin Mary's parents, St. Anne and St. Joachim, were childless, when an angel came to them and told them they would give birth to a daughter. During the conception of Mary, she was preserved from the stain of original sin.------------------In their present form the pseudepigraphal writings contained in the Sibylline Oracles include literature written from the 2nd century BC through the 6th century of the Christian era. They contain some material relevant to the birth and infancy of Jesus. But this passage in the Oracles, Book III, probably represents the hopes of pre-Christian Alexandrian Jews.[4]


"Be of good cheer, O maiden, and exult; for the Eternal, who made heaven and earth, has given thee joy, and he will dwell in thee, and for thee shall be an immortal light.

And wolves and lambs promiscuously shall eat grass in the mountains, and among the kids shall leopards graze, And wandering bears shall lodge among the calves, and the carnivorous lion shall eat straw in the manger like the ox, and little children lead them with a band. For tame will be on earth the beasts he made,

And with young babes will dragons fall asleep, and no harm, for God’s hand will be on them."[54]
-------------------------The Qur'an and other Islamic literature contain reports of a number of miraculous births of biblical characters. The Qur'an describes virginal conception of Jesus by Mary (Arabic: Maryam), which is recounted throughout several passages in the Qur'an. The narrative goes that Mary was visited by the angel Gabriel that she will give birth to a holy son, named Isa' (Jesus), the Messiah and that he will be a great prophet, to whom God will give the Injil (Gospel) and he will speak in infancy and maturity and will be a companion to the most righteous. When this news was given to Mary, she asked the angel how she can have a baby as she was a virgin.[55] To this, the angel replied "Even though when God wants to create a matter, he merely wills (Kun-fa-yakun) it and the things come into being".[56]

After giving birth, while resting near the trunk of a palm tree Jesus spoke to Mary from the cradle instructing her to shake the tree and obtain its fruits. After showing Jesus as a newborn to her family Jesus again spoke "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet. Blessed he has made me, wherever I may be; and He has enjoined me to pray, and to give alms, so long as I live and likewise to cherish my mother" in order to dispel rumours of conception.[57][58] This birth narrative draws strong parallels to the apocryphal tradition of Jesus' birth within the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and Arabic Infancy Gospel.
----------------------Muhammad[edit]

After the death of the Abdullah his wife Aminah had a vision where angels visited her and informed that soon she will give birth to a boy and told her to name him Muhammad.[59] When Prophet Muhammad was about to be born, Aminah was visited by Hawa, Asiya and Mary with angels to help her.[60] All the pagan idols of Kaaba fall down and bright light appeared.[61]

Kabir[edit]

Main article: Sufism

In 1440,[62] the poet Kabir was also said to have been born of a virgin widow (a Hindu), through the palm of her hand. Like Karna, Kabir was sent down the river in a basket; he was found and adopted by a family of Muslim weavers, downstream.[63][64
---------------Quetzalcoatl[edit]

There are several stories about the birth of Quetzalcoatl. In the first story, Quetzalcoatl was born by a virgin named Chimalman, to whom the god Ometeotl appeared in a dream.[68] In another story, the virgin Chimalman conceived Quetzalcoatl by swallowing an emerald.[69] A third story narrates that Chimalman was hit in the womb by an arrow bolted by Mixcoatl and nine months later she gave birth to Quetzalcoatl.[70][not in citation given (See discussion.)] A fourth story narrates that Quetzalcoatl was born from Coatlicue, who already had four hundred children who formed the stars of the Milky Way.[71]
--------------------Japanese mythology[edit]

Miraculous births are common in Japanese folklore, and include Momotarō the Peach Boy (who was found inside a giant peach floating on a river), Kintarō (about whom several origin myths are told), and Kaguya-hime (who was born inside the stalk of a glowing bamboo plant).

Native American mythology[edit]

The Great Peacemaker, sometimes referred to as Deganawida or Dekanawida (Iroquois) was born a Huron, and by some accounts, his mother was a virgin, so the birth was miraculous.[73

lori100: yw...yes, though I still believe it may have and can happen from divine intervention....or could be symbolic....who knows...I have had amazing healing when I asked for it...unexplained stuff happens....

Apokalupto: Other religions of the world have nothing to do with whether or not the scriptures speak of the concept of a virgin birth.

You say its not a Jewish concept and there is no evidence in the torah or nach to support such a story? Have you not read the scriptures? This absolutely runs against the evidence in the scripture as I have already shown some of it just in Isaiah 7 itself, which you neglected to answer and instead you fall back on commentary. HERE are the things you neglected to address, which is evidence for Isaiah 7 itself, and afterwards I have compiled a large amount of evidence.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((("They joined forces to attempt to conquer Jerusalem. King Ahaz was terrified and G-d sent the prophet Isaiah to reassure him of his divine protection" -Poetry


So actually Isaiah addressed the house of David (because it IS about the messiah) and in the plural sense, because King Ahaz refused to hear from the Lord who offered to give king Ahaz what seems to obviously be a super natural sign since hes told to ask what ever he wants! What ever from the depths bellow or in the height above! But he refuses.


So Isaiah turns to the house of David, THE MESSIAH PROPHETIC LINE, and says an "almah" a veiled or hidden young woman will give birth to a child and will be called "God with us." Israel is famous for having this name of God "el" in their names. So my question is, if God offered the king basically anything he wanted from the height above to the depths bellow, what part of "just" a young girl having giving birth to a child with "el" in his name a sign? There are plenty of those already in Israel! From the depths bellow or in the height above - nope, turns out there's no sign at all even though God promised one, just a little girl somewhere going to give birth, who would recognize this in all Israel anyway? Nothing stands out, nothing about it is a sign to Israel.


Isaiah 7:13 "And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?" In other words, God is certainly promising something supernatural, because you can weary men with big requests, but you cannot weary the Almighty God. The following verse God promises the Almah shall give birth. A few verse down we hear about the child.


"They joined forces to attempt to conquer Jerusalem. King Ahaz was terrified and G-d sent the prophet Isaiah to reassure him of his divine protection"

But the scripture says that before this child can even tell the difference between good and evil the land will be forsaken of both of the kings. Your interpretation of the prophecy being about the protection of the king is not in accordance with this.


Isaiah 7:16 "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."


I know that you will say it was fulfilled in their day, but you wanted context, and this verse shows that interpretation is wrong, the child was never there to help with the war or the king. The scripture NEVER AGAIN mentions Immanuel. All things point towards a supernatural prophecy in the future)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

________________________________________________
GOD HIMSELF tells us how He works, and its through similitudes, or likenesses, simularties in the prophets.
Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

For what has happened in the past over and over are similitudes of something like that in the future. It does not say “exact copy” it says likeness, or similarity, or similitude.

Isaiah 7:14 there had to be a sign, there is nothing unique about someone having a normal conception, it had to be supernatural. The context supports this, and so does the similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

If you intend on learning such things from hearsay on wire, then its no wonder you don’t see the overwhelming evidence for a virgin birth or even the concept in the scriptures, you don’t actually study it, you just believe people on wire.

Bringing in other religions of the world is a logical fallacy, it’s not related with whether or not the scriptures speak of the concept of a virgin birth.

The beginning of the similitude of the supernatural virgin birth.

Sarah, Abrahams wife was too old to have children, it was scientifically impossible. God visits Sarah at the time appointed and she is supernaturally able to continue the seed of Abraham through the Lords direct intervention. This is no coincidence, there is a theme of barren woman and supernatural births in the scriptures, and each time God supernaturally intervenes for her to have a child, its always a male, and the life of that son always pictures the messiah. God often chooses women who no longer could have children or had barren wombs which all foreshadows a supernatural virgin birth as the epitome.

Genesis 18:10 And he (God) said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

Genesis 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.


Genesis 18:14 uses similar language to that in Isaiah 7 affirming that nothing is too hard for the Lord. Isaiah 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Back to Genesis

Genesis 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Genesis 18:15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.


To laugh at the power of God coming upon women in order for supernatural birth is a scary thought.


That supernatural intervention of that child, Isaac, pictures a few things.
Of course the first thing is the supernatural intervention to make his birth even possible
2. Ishmael was rejected as a son of Abraham, God calls Isaac his only son and the promise is given through Isaac and his seed, not Ishmael, thus in the NT, the promise is given through Christ, and must be born in Christ, just as the promise of the seed only came through Isaac. Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman “”shall not be heir”” with my son, even with Isaac. Genesis 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; “”in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.””
3. Isaac pictures the sacrifice of Christ, and obedience unto death, as was Christ.

The theme continues with both the supernatural birth and the figures of Christ.

So again, now Isaacs wife cannot have Children and God supernaturally intervenes for her to be able to have children when it was otherwise impossible. (Don’t laugh)


Genesis 25:21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. (Jacob)

That supernatural intervention of that child, Jacob, pictures a few things about Christ. Of course the first thing as usually is the supernatural intervention to make his birth even possible.

2. Jacob had to put the animal skins over his body to fool his father Isaac who was blind (the picture of the covering of the animal sacrifice, same as Isaac) Just as in the NT the Father does not look upon our sin because its forgiven because of the covering of the lamb of Christ, as with Isaac, his blindness pictures not being able to see Jacobs sin right before his eyes through the trickery of the animal coverings.


3. Jacob took Esau’s Birthright, and Isaac his father gave the blessing to Jacob instead of Esau only because he was covered by the skins, thus the priesthood could come through Jacob to Levi, not Esau and then to someone else. Christ is the great High Priest, who offered Himself as a sacrifice for the atonement of our sins.


4. Esau hated his brother Jacob and wanted to kill him. In the NT we have the same concept, the Jews wanted to kill Jesus throughout his entire ministry. Judas betrayed him to the Jews, and the Jews to the Romans.


So again, Jacobs wife Rachel was barren, (Don’t laugh) but God had visited her and supernaturally she was able to have children only by the Lords direct intervention.

Gen 30:2 And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?
Gen 30:22 And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb. (Joseph)


Once again, that supernatural intervention of that child, (Joseph), pictures Christ to a T. Of course the first thing as usually is the supernatural intervention to make his birth even possible.
1.He is the object of his father’s special love. (God calls Jesus His believed son)
2.He was mocked by his family, and betrayed by his brothers (Jesus was mocked, hated and betrayed by the Jews)
3.He was sold for pieces of silver to the Egyptians. (Jesus was betrayed with silver by Judas)
4.He was stripped of his robe. (Jesus was stripped of his robe)
5.they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood after they betrayed him. Again another picture of the covering of the animal sacrifice which was done to cover their sins against Joseph in the site of their father (hide their sin) By the blood of Christ our sins is forgiven and and looked upon no more.
6.Joseph was falsely accused by the wife of potiphar before he went to prison (The Jews brought false witnesses to accuse Jesus before he was handed over to the Romans to be crucified)
7.He brothers gave him over to the Gentiles(Egyptians). (Jesus was delivered to the Jews by Judas and delivered to gentiles ‘The Romans” by the Jews)
8.He was thrown into prison with two prisoners, one lives one dies. This was a symbolic death, then Joseph came out of prison from symbolic death and exulted to the right hand of pharaoh (Jesus died between too criminals, one lives the other dies, and then He rose to the right hand of the Father, just as Joseph was at the right hand of pharaoh)
9.People must now bow their knee before Joseph. (When Jesus returns he will come in the glory of the Father and will be ruler over all the earth) There are more foreshadowings, but this will do.
The theme doesn’t end there, it continues with more figures of Christ and more foreshadowing of a virgin birth.
So again, Samsons mother is barren and cannot conceive, but God supernaturally intervenes.

1. Judges 13:2 And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.
Judges 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.


Of course the first thing as usually is the supernatural intervention to make his birth even possible which is at the point of Ad nauseam.


Judges 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb:
2. (Of course Samson sinned, but his vow of separation under the Lord pictures Christ who was without sin, and later on, the sinless sacrifice)
3. and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.


New Testament. Matthew 1:21 “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” Ultimately the greatest enemy of Israel was their sin which is why they always had to deal with foreign invaders, the philistines picture that because they were harassing Israel because of their sins. Christ dealt with the spiritual enemy first, the atonement of sin and will deal with the physical enemies in his second coming, the glory and reign of Christ.
4. Samson wanted to take a gentile bride (although for different reasons) so Christ took on a gentile bride, the church was grafted in.
And Jesus said unto them, Can the friends of the bridegroom fast, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.[Mark 2:19]

In Matthew 9:15, Mark 2:19 and Luke 5:34, the Apostles are referred to as the friends, guests, or children depending on the translation, of the Bridegroom commonly accepted to be Jesus Christ.

The Bridegroom is also mentioned in the Parable of the Ten Virgins.[Mt 25:1-13]

6. Samson ending up dying because of his affairs with the gentile woman Delilah, picturing the sacrifice for his people, so Christ too died for the same reason and for the church, the gentile bride.

7. Once again, his own people, his own brethren betray him.

Judges15:11 Then three thousand men of Judah went to the top of the rock Etam, and said to Samson, Knowest thou not that the Philistines are rulers over us? what is this that thou hast done unto us? And he said unto them, As they did unto me, so have I done unto them.
Judges15:12 And they said unto him, We are come down to bind thee, that we may deliver thee into the hand of the Philistines. And Samson said unto them, Swear unto me, that ye will not fall upon me yourselves.

Just as Christ was betrayed by his own.

8. Samson was also betrayed by silver, as was Joseph, and so as the prophets make other mention.

Judges 16:5 And the lords of the Philistines came up unto her, and said unto her, Entice him, and see wherein his great strength lieth, and by what means we may prevail against him, that we may bind him to afflict him: and we will give thee every one of us eleven hundred pieces of silver.

Matthew26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Matthew 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.
There are many more shadows of Christ in Sampson.


The theme is being drilled in at this point, God choses woman who cannot give birth so that He can show a great sign and reveal his chosen leader from the sign of the supernatural birth.

So again Samuel was birthed by the supernatural will of God.

1Samuel 1:5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.
So she prays to God to open her womb, and Eli the priest arrives.
1Samuel 1:17 Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace: and the God of Israel grant thee thy petition that thou hast asked of him.
1Samuel 1:20 Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him of the LORD


The Christ theme that has been presented by all of these children who had supernatural births by the intervention of God is mostly pictured not in Samuels life himself, but in the story at large, with David, Saul, kingship, kingdom and so forth. But we shant move on to other characters but we will stick with those who are in keeping with the supernatural birth theme.


Another supernatural birth .
Ruth 4:11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, (Who also had supernatural births) which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem  Like Jesus
Ruth 4:12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman. Almah-Single young woman)
Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son. (The LORD made it possible for her to conceive, shes like Rachel and like Leah in more ways than one)
Ruth 4:14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.
Ruth 4:15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.


An almah was always expected to be a virgin, it would be outrageous to think that she wasn’t, she also could have grounds for execution if she wasn’t under certain circumstances.
You can’t take a modern look at words and think you understand their application in ancient Israel. Almah is the Hebrew word for a “single young woman” you’re right, but there’s more. At that time a single young woman was expected to be a virgin, perhaps not anymore in modern day Israel! Additionally Isaiah 7:14 tells us it’s a sign. There is nothing unusually about a woman having a baby, it happens every day, and this child never shows up anyway, again no sign, and you also say it was about their time, not a future prophecy, yet everything about the context and so forth speaks otherwise. This point you refuse to address, its at top of this post in full.

They say the word should be “betulah.” The second problem is that out of the 8 times the word “almah” appears in the Old Testament, 7 times the ancient rabbis, the sages who translated the Septuagint translated it “parthenos” including in Isaiah 7:14, proving the fact that they understood that there was NO issue with translating “almah” into the Greek word for virgin “parthenos” because it was perfectly acceptable to think she was, the context of Isaiah affirms this point, and the context of the special birth in the past leading up to this point makes it more than obvious, especially when we know that God says that the King comes to the virgin daughter of Zion, who He likens to one who gives birth. This point of the virgin birth is so vastly firm im not sure how anyone would think its not a virgin birth without some really special glasses on.

After the translation of the Hebrew Torah into Greek the in 282 BC all the remaining books all the other books were fully translated into Greek as early as 250 BC but not any later than 150 BC.

The eminent Jewish Septuagint scholar Emanuel Tov dates the pre-Christian era manuscript of the Greek translation of Isaiah (LXX which we call the Septuagint) to 170 BC because it contains allusions to historical situations and events that point to the years 170-150 BC.

I know Jews would love to make Christian conspiracies out of this, but the case is not so.

So why did I give such a detailed view with these figures who had supernatural births by Gods direct intervention which all carried the same theme and who all are a similitude of Jesus? Because there is nothing far-fetched at all about the culmination of supernatural births leading up to the Messiah as being virgin born as its epitome which was vastly foreshadowed by the LORD, which concept was ALSO figured by God through the virgin daughter of Zion whom God likens to a girl who gives birth, hence Isaiah 7:14, a single young woman conceives.


Poetry: “I have learned here on wireclub that the 'virgin birth' appears throughout many ancient pagan stories. It was not a new concept. However, it was not a Jewish concept and there is no evidence in the torah or nach to support such a story.”

Not a jewish concept, and no evidence for it to support that?

BEHOLD! The daughter of Zion is a virgin.
Isaiah37:22 This is the word which the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.

Jeremiah4:31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her **first child,** the voice of **the daughter of Zion,** that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

Lamentations 2:13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?

Micah 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Micah 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

God connects the King Messiah with the virgin daughter of Zion.

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

This is why God has always chosen women who could not bear children without the supernatural intervention of God to bring forth Gods chosen seed, the virgin birth is merely its epitome which God foreshadowed Ad nauseam.

I post this twice so you wouldn’t forget it. Remember!

GOD HIMSELF tells us how He works, and its through similitudes, or likenesses, simularties, which is precisely what ive been presenting this entire time. To say that my post is wrong because its in the form of figures and similitude’s and likenesses and similarities, and themes prototypes and the like would run against Gods own methods.

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

For what has happened in the past over and over are similitudes of something like that in the future. It does not say “exact copy” it says likeness, or similarity, or similitude.



“All jews say”-Poetry
Is that so? That’s a logical fallacy, here are some Jews that don’t agree with you.

Here is another Jew who I think is highly educated and knows Hebrew who would say this, Dr. Michael Brown
Jacob Prasch, too, who speaks hebrew, but i dont know if hes a Jew.

Yes, I absolutely see in scripture a virgin birth concept, even prophecy, even the King Messiah being connected to that concept, even Isaiah 7 leaves no room for anything else, even the historical context of what an almah was supposed to be. All of these characters show the same or similar signs or figures, it’s a theme over and over. The Messiah comes to the virgin daughter of Zion and dwells in her midst. Oh really? God putting these two together should not come to a surprise to those who know the scriptures, for He has foreshadowed it Ad nauseam through the fathers and the prophets. But you just think the concept of a virgin birth is silly, perhaps you laugh like Sarah.

briansmythe: Strongs Concordance
Hebrew to Greek

Result of search for "almah":
5959 `almah al-maw' feminine of 5958; a lass (as veiled or private):--damsel, maid, virgin.

Apokalupto: THINGS THAT YOU DID NOT ADDRESS INCLUDE:

1."Almah" and its ancient application and understanding, and why an almah was thought/expected to be a virgin.
2.The miraculous supernatural births of Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Samson, Samuel, Ruth.
3.The virgin daughter of Zion who God literally pictures as giving birth.
4.My argument of Isaiah 7:14 by context, which is addressed to the House of David (Messianic line) Not Ahaz
5.The dating of the Septuagint (Way before Christ) and their translation "virgin"

THINGS THAT YOU CHOSE TO TALK ABOUT INCLUDE:

1. Other religions.
2. Insignificant misquotes (sorry about that) you misquoted me as well more than once.
3. Questioning the Jewishness of Dr. Michael Brown (Hes a Jew regardless of his religion. Born of a Jewish mother)
4. Your old argument which never addressed my arguments. (saying woman wear veils when they get married hardly answer the question that it meant she was a assumed a virgin, not assumed shes in a wedding dress, but nice try)

Hope I didn't miss anything.

Poetry- "Again you claim it a fact that Jews translated what you call the OT."

Poetry- "Your OT is not a Jewish text but rather a revised Christian edition."

Poetry- "That said- it is fine by me that you continue to believe your Christian texts."

Oh...here's what I actually said: "After the translation of the Hebrew Torah (We both agree Jews translated the Torah) into Greek the in 282 BC

All the other books were fully translated into Greek as early as 250 BC but not any later than 150 BC.

The eminent Jewish Septuagint scholar Emanuel Tov dates the pre-Christian era manuscript of the Greek translation of Isaiah (LXX which we call the Septuagint) to 170 BC because it contains allusions to historical situations and events that point to the years 170-150 BC."

I know Jews would love to make Christian conspiracies out of this. And just so you know, I believe the Old Testament in Hebrew and in English. : )

Poetry- "I will make this my last post." That's fine, as it's hard to appreciate your style. Have a nice day.

Angry Beaver: Boys, boys, why cant we all just get on together...

Jaguar Essence: Poetry

Thank you so much for speaking up and being so clear of what is and isn't, you have done an amazing job, you went to the point consistent and eloquently

Apokalupto: @Black Jaguar Essence Hello EE.

Jaguar Essence:

briansmythe: Yeah I realized that too , But i didnt say any thing

Precious Pea: l couldn't be bothered reading it all too much pontificating

Apokalupto: One wonders why you even commented. Too much pontificating? Not really, Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of a virgin birth.

Precious Pea: I only came to check out this topic, because a friend of mine suggested it I'm just too lazy to read the whole feed right now, maybe another time, when my brain is ready to read it all sorry

Apokalupto: You can read the very first and the very last and that will tell you everything you need to know.

ponit: I would be very interested to know what Hebrew word in ישעיהו ז' י"ד means "will conceive". The truth is that NO WORD in the verse means this.

DontNeedChrist: Interesting, after a month, no reply to ponit regarding his enquiry regarding where the Hebrew words "will conceive" are found in 7:14. Wonder why that would be? Because it's not there and never was.

The fact is, christian MIS-translations of Isaiah 7:14 tamper with the wording. The following is what it REALLY says in the biblical Hebrew:

לָ֠כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹנָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם א֑וֹת הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שְׁמ֖וֹ עִמָּ֥נוּ

"Assuredly, my Lord will give you a sign of His own accord! Look, the young woman IS WITH CHILD and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel."

Another variation:
"Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman IS WITH CHILD, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel."

What do the christian MIS-translations say?
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." - KJV

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." - NIV

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel." - NASB

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." - NKJV

Notice the difference. Notice the tampering. Notice the last one (NKJV) capitalizes the word "son." This misleads the reader into thinking the child is divine but Hebrew has no capital letters.

The Hebrew word הָרָה֙ (harah) found in verse 14 means PREGNANT (IS WITH CHILD). Why would Isaiah point to THE young woman (not A young woman) WHO IS ALREADY PREGNANT and refer to her as a virgin? She was obviously NOT a virgin.

So all the endless and exhaustive twisting and maligning of the words "ha almah" and "ha b'tulah" are irrelevant. The young woman is harah הָרָה֙ (WITH CHILD).

The MIS-translations attempt to confuse and force the jesus-virgin-birth narrative into a verse where it never existed in the first place.

There is no prophecy of a virgin-birth anywhere in the Tanakh. THE young woman (ha almah) WAS ALREADY PREGNANT. Case closed.

Apokalupto: DoesNeedChrist. You did not address any of the arguments I made.

THINGS THAT YOU DID NOT ADDRESS INCLUDE: (The whole argument)

1."Almah" and its ancient application and understanding, and why an almah was thought/expected to be a virgin.
2.The miraculous supernatural births of Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Samson, Samuel, Ruth.
3.The virgin daughter of Zion who God literally pictures as giving birth.
4.My argument of Isaiah 7:14 by context, which is addressed to the House of David (Messianic line) Not Ahaz
5.The dating of the Septuagint (Way before Christ) and their translation "virgin"

Unless these arguments can be given a proper rebuttle, then it stands, which you chose not to address. You are fighting a straw man that doesn't exist.

Arguing from tense probably is not a great argument, since Biblical Hebrew (not modern Hebrew) uses only 2 tenses, and its argued whether there is even a future tense at all.

Here is another reason why tense is not a strong argument at all.

Rabbi Isaac ben Yedaiah (13th c.)

[The rabbis] of blessed memory followed, in these words of theirs, in the paths of the prophets who speak of something which will happen in the future in the language of the past. Since they saw in prophetic vision that which was to occur in the future, they spoke about it in the past tense and testified firmly that it had happened, to teach the certainty of his [God's] words -- may he be blessed -- and his positive promise that can never change and his beneficent message that will not be altered.

-- Saperstein, Marc. "The Works of R. Isaac b. Yedaiah." Ph.D. dissertation, Harvard University, 1977, pp. 481-82. Cited in Daggers of Faith by Robert Chazan, Berkeley: UC Press, 1989, p. 87.

~~~~~~~~
Medieval Jewish grammarian and commentator David Kimchi on the prophets' use of the perfect for future events:

"The matter is as clear as though it had already passed."

-- David Kimchi, Sefer Mikhlol. Cited in Waltke, Bruce K. and O'Connor, Michael Patrick. An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns, 1990), p. 464 n. 45. They reference Leslie McCall, The Enigma of the Hebrew Verbal System: Solutions From Ewald to the Present (Sheffield: Almond, 1982), p. 8.

~~~~~~~~
From the standard grammar of Biblical Hebrew, Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar (section 106n, pp. 312-313):

More particularly the uses of the perfect [tense] may be distinguished as follows: -- ...To express facts which are undoubtedly imminent, and, therefore in the imagination of the speaker, already accomplished (perfectum confidentiae), e.g., Nu. 17:27, behold, we perish ,we are undone, we are all undone. Gn. 30:13, Is. 6:5 (I am undone), Pr. 4:2....This use of the perfect occurs most frequently in prophetic language (perfectum propheticum). The prophet so transports himself in imagination into the future that he describes the future event as if it had been already seen or heard by him, e.g. Is. 5:13 therefore my people are gone into captivity; 9:1ff.,10:28,11:9...; 19:7, Jb. 5:20, 2 Ch. 20:37. Not infrequently the imperfect interchanges with such perfects either in the parallel member or further on in the narrative.

"Perfect" is a type of past tense, it appears to be pretty common for prophecies.

Merry Christmas. : )

Precious Pea: Merry Christmas Jesus is the reason for the season

DontNeedChrist: The young woman Isaiah pointed to was ALREADY PREGNANT therefore not a virgin. It's as clear cut as that. All the other extraneous drivel you bring up to deflect from that FACT speaks volumes. Case closed. There will be no more comments from me on this thread. Type whatever you want. Believe whatever you want.