Self Defense, Biblical versus murder (Page 3)

Zanjan
Zanjan: "how do YOU know dogs have no ultimate meaning?"

I've known them all my life and have bred them to official champions. If they'd had a complex brain, with ADDITIONAL PARTS like humans, I'd have factored that into my Wrights co-efficient.

They're smart enough to require training and discipline to bring out their best, and clever enough to escape almost anything. BUT, they have no means to intuit the purpose of life in the cosmos or unravel mysteries of existence.

However, they have more meaning to *us* than we have to them, in the grand scheme of things.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Crash
Crash: "They're smart enough to require training and discipline to bring out their best, and clever enough to escape almost anything. BUT, they have no means to intuit the purpose of life in the cosmos or unravel mysteries of existence. "


According to whom? You? sorry but you are not an authority to make that assessment. Your "logic" fails once again.
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Crash
Crash: Saying words like Co-efficient.....doesn't make you appear like you know what you are talking about. If you then follow it up with non answers and nonsense. Try actually answering a direct question some time...instead of all your deflections with erroneous bs...that has nothing to do with what the topic is. Say it with me ....STRAWMAN!
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Zanjan
Zanjan: As if you even know what I'm talking about!
(Edited by Zanjan)
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HydroMan
(Post deleted by HydroMan 6 years ago)
HydroMan
HydroMan: I said nothing about 'ultimate meaning'. I'm simply showing you the logic of atheism, and that you are in no position to complain or identify concepts such as 'evil';

* God does not exist.
* Nothing or no one created the universe.
* Everything that exists (including human life), exists for no reason
* The universe is the result of chaos, chance, disorder and purposeless mechanisms
* All the design and complexity in the universe was never intentionally designed or created

Logical conclusion: there is no significance or meaning to anything – no need/reason to have laws to guide the universe, no need/reason to have morals for an accidental human life, nothing is absolute/everything is relative etc

Don't take it from me, take it from your fellow atheists;

“In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference”. [Richard Dawkins, The River out of Eden: A Darwinian view of Life, 1995 p.133]

Justin Brierley: “Ultimately, your belief that rape is wrong is as arbitrary as the fact that we’ve evolved five fingers rather than six.” Richard Dawkins: “You could say that, yeah” [Richard Dawkins interview with Justin Brierley, Friday 24th October 2008]

“No purposive principles exist in nature. Organic evolution has occurred by various combinations of random genetic drift, natural selection, Mendelian heredity, and many other purposeless mechanisms. Humans are complex organic machines that die completely with no survival of soul or psyche. Humans and other animals make choices frequently, but these are determined by the interaction of heredity and environment and are not the result of free will. No inherent moral or ethical laws exist, nor are there absolute guiding principles for human society. The universe cares nothing for us and we have no ultimate meaning in life” [William Provine, The Scientist “Scientists, Face It! 1998]

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist”. [Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra: A Book for All and None, published between 1883-1891]

“Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist, and man is in consequence forlorn, for he cannot find anything to depend upon either within or outside himself.... Nor, on the other hand, if God does not exist, are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimize our behavior. Thus we have neither behind us, nor before us in a luminous realm of values, any means of justification or excuse”. [Jean Paul Sartre, Existentialism is Humanism. 1946]

“There is no moral interpreter in the cosmos, nothing cares and nobody cares… The Sun is going to explode, we’re all gonna be gone. No one’s gonna care” [Dan Barker, debate with Paul Manata entitled, Is Christianity or Atheism More Rational?]

“If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what's the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing”. [American serial killer and sex offender Jeffrey Dahmer, interview with Stone Phillips, NBC, Nov. 29, 1994]

From an atheistic point of view, what evidence is there to suggest the universe (and everything in it) has any meaning or value? None. This is because everything that exists, came into existence for no reason, through chaos and blind chance (ie whether it is a pile of rocks or a human baby, everything is ultimately the result of an unintended chaotic process of events with no deliberate function, plan or design). Therefore, based on the evidence, an atheist is forced to conclude that their very existence has no meaning. And if an atheist chooses to live a life that contradicts the evidence (such as living a life of meaning and purpose, or identifying something as evil) then they are (1) intellectually dishonest (2) a hypocrite
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Crash
Crash: Your conclusion is just wrong. We give our own existence meaning while we are existing. We give it whatever meaning we choose to give it from our own subjective experiences. "Ultimate meaning" and "Meaning" aren't the same things.

If you think your life would have no meaning without a supernatural dictator to give it one...well I feel sorry for you. Seems to me you're either delusional or just not a very up beat person. To say your life only has meaning because a book says it does....is pretty depressing thinking.

I choose to assign my own meaning and morals to my life. Yes , there is no such thing as objective morality, however we do , as a whole, what helps to progress humans flourishing. Secular Humanism. To say that us as a people , having morals , is proof or evidence of any god is just silly thinking and faulty logic.

I'm sorry you think the universe NEEDS to have an Ultimate meaning for life itself to have any meaning. That is a sad outlook and a delusional worldview. So yeah....your conclusion is wrong. Sorry.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Since the outlook of atheists is so dreary, why don't they just kill themselves now? Why waste time, waiting to the inevitable end? All that hard work for NOTHING! I'm guessing it's because self-destruction goes against their 'accidental' ego; they can't overcome this basic impulse so, they're cowards by nature.

Meanwhile, they intend to take whatever they can extract from the world, squeezing the most personal pleasure out of it as possible. Atheism justifies selfish desires.

Crash: "I choose to assign my own meaning and morals to my life.

We all do. What's yours? Got a name for it?
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Hydro exactly. Good post
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HydroMan
HydroMan: Your conclusion is just wrong
Its not just my conclusion, your fellow atheists have come to the same conclusion

We give our own existence meaning while we are existing. We give it whatever meaning we choose to give it from our own subjective experiences.

This is a very dangerous view. If we humans give our own meaning, and it is based on subjective experiences, then anything goes. For instance, Adolf Hitler's view on what is ‘meaningful’ (what he considers to have meaning and purpose in life) is equally valid as Martin Luther King Jr's worldview on what is meaningful because it is simply a matter of opinion. If a person finds meaning in raping babies, then according to you, it would be perfectely acceptable because it is their subjective opinion (it is your opinion that their meaning in life is wrong, just as it is their opinion that their meaning in life it good and right)

To say your life only has meaning because a book says it does....is pretty depressing thinking.
I never said life has meaning because a book says it does

there is no such thing as objective morality, however we do , as a whole, what helps to progress humans flourishing. Secular Humanism.

That is your subjective opinion and cannot be agreed with others. For instance, another person might believe it is perfectly acceptable to slaughter handicapped people, people with low IQs, people with mental and physical disabilities because it ‘helps to progress humans flourishing’ (ie get rid of the weaker groups and allow the strong to thrive and reproduce) This is the very same set of ‘morals’ in which Adolf Hitler had. ie From Adolf Hitler’s point of view, it was “good” and “right” to kill people with genetic disorders/defects in order to ensure the future human race thrives with no weaknesses (ie people with disabilities and disorders were seperated from society, had various medical experiements conducted on them, and then taken to concentration camps to be killed). Humans with the most advanced genes would be the only humans to remain alive in order to ensure the health and well-being of the human race

I find your conclusions to be very dangerous, illogical and irrational. I don’t think you have fully examined conclusions.

I will conclude with the words of Charles Darwin

Charles Darwin wrote, “A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God or of future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones.” [Charles Darwin, The autobiography of Charles Darwin. 1887. Norton Library edition. P. 94] According to Darwin, if a person has no assurance or belief in the existence of God, then he is free to rule his life and follow his “impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones”. So if a person has a strong impulse to kill the disabled because they slow down the human race from thriving and advancing, then they can; as those impulses are what the person considers to be the best


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HydroMan
HydroMan: Since the outlook of atheists is so dreary, why don't they just kill themselves now? Why waste time, waiting to the inevitable end?

Zanjan, studies show that atheists have a higher suicide rate than theists. I suspect it is because they have followed the logic of what it means to be an atheist (speed up the process of the inevitable)

A foreign publisher of my first book confessed that he could not sleep for three nights after reading it, so troubled was he by what he saw as its cold, bleak message. Others have asked me how I can bear to get up in the mornings. A teacher from a distant country wrote me reproachfully that a pupil had come to him in tears after reading the same book, because it had persuaded her that life was empty and purposeless. He advised her not to show the book to any of her friends, for fear of contaminating them with the same nihilistic pessimism. [Richard Dawkins, Unweaving The Rainbow, New York: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1998, p. ix.]
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "Zanjan, studies show that atheists have a higher suicide rate than theists."

The problem with studies is they're more like surveys and don't delve far enough into the backgrounds of those they poll.

I've met a lot of atheists; from my personal take, those who've NEVER believed in an intelligent, living God are not normally in danger of committing suicide. It would have to take a devastating, hopeless life crisis for them to even think about it.

The Dalai Lama, for instance, has a set of philosophies based on simple old social truths, carried forward from religion (consequences of actions). He believes there is just a mindless "force" out there we need to understand and be in tune with - not a Deity. Yet history shows when Buddhist monks get upset enough about something, they'll protest through personal/group starvation and will often self-immolate. This comes from the belief that man is in control of everything.

On the other hand, those who once believed in God as a Deity but lost their Faith (so have become atheists) are high risk for suicide. Deep down, they feel loss and despair, which makes them very vulnerable; they can literally make themselves sick to death. Unlike the above example, it's possible for *some* of these to safely return to their roots. For them, it's just a major hiccup on their spiritual journey.

This is not to say that religious believers don't have suicidal thoughts - I've met many who have but, the law of God, forbidding it, prevents them from carrying out their own wishes. Often, those thoughts crossing their minds are a hold-over from a previous life/health condition but do no harm because they will dispel those thoughts.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Crash
Crash: ZanJan...once again you are playing the assumption game. And the "You said this ...so you MUST mean THIS." Game. Ultimately , Completely incorrect.

"Since the outlook of atheists is so dreary, why don't they just kill themselves now? Why waste time, waiting to the inevitable end? All that hard work for NOTHING! I'm guessing it's because self-destruction goes against their 'accidental' ego; they can't overcome this basic impulse so, they're cowards by nature.

Meanwhile, they intend to take whatever they can extract from the world, squeezing the most personal pleasure out of it as possible. Atheism justifies selfish desires."


Who said the Atheists outlook is dreary? I never said There is nothing after death. I simply stated that there is NO EVIDENCE for anything after death. Certainly no evidence for the Biblical or any other scriptural "afterlife." You might be projecting methinks.

My name for my morals in my life is reason, education, and experience ...with I suppose a little common sense thrown in for good measure. Also Zan, yes we all want to squeeze out pleasure and enjoyment from this life, simply because it's the only one we have.

However, we can also leave a legacy. With our children, or the people, and knowledge that we impart along the way, and in turn leave behind. Our existence isn't meaningless just because it doesn't continue after death.

And Atheists don't kill themselves for that same simple reason. We aren't the ones looking forward to the end of the world. That's the religious people I believe you're thinking about.


Hydro,

It's funny that you are referencing Hitler in your "arguments." Hitler was a Christian, endorsed by the Catholic church and did what he did...because he believed it was what GOD wanted him to do. So you might want to rethink that before you use him to back up your claims.

Please provide citations of the studies you referenced about the suicides rates...I doubt you have researched appropriately.

In conclusion. You are simply making my case for me of the non existence of objective morality. You seem to be citing all the "Bad" things that people could do without an objective moral authority to guide them. Yes what you are saying is technically correct....however as you can see from the world we live in...that is simply not the case. The majority of the world isn't offing each other, nor raping babies, nor "insert atrocious random thing here." That's just not what is happening. To say that is because the majority of the world is religious is ridiculous and has no evidence to back it. Correlation isn't causation ...sorry it just isn't.

What does have evidence is that Many of the worlds wars were fought over one religion or another. Atrocities ARE committed in the name of one GOD or another. Yet you seem to think we need religion to have morals. Seems to me the opposite holds true. There would be a lot less violence in this world if organized religion did NOT exist.

Basically it comes down to this:

There is no evidence whatsoever. No measurable , demonstrable, non-anecdotal evidence for ANY God/s. Yet people make truth claims nonetheless. They claim to "KNOW" what cannot possibly be known...with nothing to back it up. That is simply a delusion. Religion does nothing but give otherwise good people an excuse to do horrid things in the name of a Deity. It has a social license it should not have, is warping our youth into believing nonsense without evidence, and turns innocent victims into mass murderers. These are not acts of a loving all inclusive harmonious worldview. What it is ....is indoctrination on the most disgusting level. A blight on a society that would be MUCH better off without it. We already kill each other for MANY reasons on this little rock we call earth. Why add one more to it that is pure fiction?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Crash: “"Who said the Atheists outlook is dreary?"

I did. Got a problem with that? Am I not famous enough for you? Do you think I don’t know a whole whack of atheists? Their attitude is consistent - it's sure as heck not as bright and cheerful as the outlook others have. Atheists are usually bitter, often bitchy, and afraid to die - any atheist who says they aren't is a liar. How happy is that??

“My name for my morals in my life is reason, education, and experience ...with I suppose a little common sense thrown in for good measure.”

Those aren’t morals.

“.with I suppose a little common sense thrown in for good measure.”

Bullshit! Common sense is universal intuition – it became a rarity 50 years ago. One doesn’t break it into little pieces, like counting out smarties – one possesses it or they don’t.

“Our existence isn't meaningless just because it doesn't continue after death.”

No doubt you find meaning in something unique to you; that disappears when you lose your marbles. Not sure why you feel so confident anyone will remember you, relative or not. Whereas, the *ultimate meaning* answers the question of the purpose of everyone’s existence.

"We aren't the ones looking forward to the end of the world."

Like I said, atheists are afraid to die. They try to hang on to whatever they have - a futile effort.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Omg Hitler was a christian? . You're a nut
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Obviously crash has no clue what he speaks of. Hitler was an athiest, his dad was a staunch athiest, his mom was a Catholic and Hitler was forced to go to church by his mom, secondly he hated the church and finally he used the church to further his agenda. A christian? Lol i may throw up
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Crash
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Crash
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Crash: "See what I did there zan."

Plagiarism is illegal; also, you're not permitted to deliberately misquote others. Some kinda morals, eh?

"Hitler was not an Atheist. "

Right, like ISIS members believe in God and Mary Baker was really Princess Caraboo

"You'd think for a woman pushing 70 you could do better than that"

You don't look like you've reached my age so how could you tell when you've never made it that far? Do you need better female clothing advice for that age?

By the way, historians have reported that Hitler committed suicide.

Crash, you must have a very big monitor to take a screen shot of this whole convo. Otherwise, who will believe you didn't miss a few posts, or cherry pick them from several different topics? Did you know you can't post image documents in Wire Topics?
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Crash
(Post deleted by Cenababy 6 years ago)
Zanjan
Zanjan: Crash>>>" I black up my claims with evidence and history,"
>>>"Hitler is reported to have committed suicide, and I personally believe that is true."

On what evidence? No body was found. The Russians wanted it real bad but even they didn't find it.

Good luck with exposing your screen shots. Perhaps you could provide evidence of your success. If all else fails, we could just pretend, right? Shall we wear anything special for the occasion?
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Crash
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Crash
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Crash
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Cenababy
Cenababy: Zan, i presume crash here has seeing problems. I SAID CLEARLY HITLER USED THE CHURCH FOR HIS AGENDA!!! guess that doesn't count. He may have used laws backing them up to kiss up to the church as well, that's beside the point, it was for his eventual agenda!!!!!

Secondly, as far as using these posts for crash' agenda by copying everything perhaps the wire admin, Rod, would like to be notified!
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