Why do you feel sorry for me? (Page 3)

TheDoctor394: What I'm saying is that there are core beliefs to every religion.

The core belief in Christianity is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and came to Earth to die for everyone's sins. All who believe this, and accept Him as their Saviour, have eternal life. This is an essential doctrine which makes one a Christian.

Now, no other religion teaches that. Islam sees Jesus as a great prophet of God, but not God's Son, and certainly not God incarnate, and they don't see belief in Him as the key to salvation. In their view, one has to obey Allah to achieve that (in a nutshell). Now, if you're going to accept one belief out of those two, you have to reject the other. Either Jesus is the only way to salvation, or He is not.

Certainly, different religions have some similarities. That's what categorises them all as religions. But there are differences too, and I don't mean the social laws (if I understand what you mean by social laws). I'm talking about spiritual ones, and it is these crucial differences which mean they contradict each other.

Zanjan: Yes, every religion has core beliefs - these are simple and were taught by the Founder, Himself.

For instance, core to Christianity is that Jesus Christ is its Founder and Divine Revelator; and, it's classified as a monotheistic religion. The problem is that Christians, over time, have been turning it into a polytheistic religion. Just listen to the lyrics of the hymnals (written by ordinary believers, not Jesus) to see how subliminal messaging works.

Christians, of course, are not the only ones to have done this. Believers did it to the Hindu Faith too. This was caused by a cultural influence as there is some flex in belief among various sects that arose because of dissension. Historically, the dynamic leads to weak faith and paganism.

While I can still defend the Founders of these religions, it's becoming increasingly more difficult to defend their followers. That defense can never be based on their any of their accumulated doctrines - only on their actions and attitudes.

As you know, the core belief of Christianity is that followers are supposed to reflect the actions and attitude of Christ, not their fellow members. It's up to them to decide whether or not it's too late to put bad history and attitude behind them and aspire to that.

Zanjan: "Either Jesus is the only way to salvation, or He is not. "

I have no intention of wrangling over doctrines but I'd like you to understand the views of those who have a broader vision of the facts. Here's a visual:

As God said, " all doors lead to the knowledge of God". You see, one door leads to another door; it's a building process so there is no right way of stumbling down the main hall of that great, spiritual journey, no particular order of knob-turning everyone must navigate. The object is to open ALL the doors available to mankind.

The Keys to *Heaven's Door* are held by the Lord of the Age.

Two thousand years ago, Jesus Christ was the newest Door (of knowledge) that God presented to humanity. Being " Lord of the Age", He was the one Who could lock or unlock **to the individual** any of the existing doors in the main hall. He chose which ones and the order (that includes His own Door).

Since then, three more doors have opened in that hall. Every Revelator God ever sent to mankind remains the Lord of their own Age - that is, none of them can unlock a door that appears after Them.

So, what is salvation? Is it a rescue from your sordid past, chains of addictions and unhealthy lifestyle? If so, you've got that in any religion - there are countless testimonies of that working well. Want more, like to enter those pearly gates of Heaven? If it's the latter, all doors have to be opened. That's the reality.

chronology: 'sordid pasts' 'chains of addictions' 'unhealthy lifestyles' my goodness you have a low opinion of none believers Zan. I have never noticed any difference between believers and none believers lifestyles. None believers do tend to be a little more picky in their food choices, they like healthy foods. They also tend to be more cooperative and less likely to gossip behind other peoples backs. Believers tend to be of much lower intelligence and love their fast food, they also love nothing better than spreading nice juicy gossip stories about the the people around them.

TheDoctor394: Alright, so we agree that Christianity has its core beliefs that define it, like all religions have.

This means that, as I was saying, one cannot accept all religions. That believing in one automatically means they see it as the one true religion, whether it be Christianity or any other.

Luxxis: Zanjan, you seem mighty confrontational. Perhaps take a moment to find some peace because ranting and raving at anyone posting here isn't it.

Zanjan: Chron " 'sordid pasts' 'chains of addictions' 'unhealthy lifestyles' my goodness you have a low opinion of none believers Zan"

That's not my opinion - it was theirs, before they became religious. I used to be like that too before I became a Baha'i so, I've got first hand experience.

By the way, one should be careful about using the word "non-believers" - it doesn't necessarily mean they don't believe in the existence of God (I always did) or recognize any of His Messengers.

Someone who believes * in the existence of God* is not the same kind of person as a believer IN God - the latter is someone who's consciously committed to serving God.

Zanjan: Doc, you don't seem to be getting it. You and some of your fellow Christians may believe there's only one true religion (yours), despite Christ never having said such a thing. In fact, no Prophet of God ever has. Deciding that something must be a certain way doesn't make it match up with reality.

If you take the above position, there's no way you can ever find unity with God or mankind.

For this reason, there are billions who don't think like you and some of your fellow Christians; thus, they don' agree with that particular premise.

Zanjan: Luxxis.........posting my observations and facts is not ranting and raving. Is it confrontational to speak the truth or to speak lies? This isn't a personal chat session - it's a forum, read by many. I'm not correcting YOU, I'm correcting disinformation.

chronology: Zan, I agree with you on some points. It is like I say it depends on what country you live in to a great extent what your experience with religion will be.
In some countries, religion just tends to be a cultural activity. In others it is just another business. They tend tto divide people into social slots of 'the brightest and best' 'the mediocre' and 'the dregs' . If you have the good fortune to be considered intelligent and well to do, you will will most likely have pleasant experiences at religion. If you are profiled as the dregs then religion is likely to be a disgusting experience. Whatever.

As I always say, each to their own and live and let live. But religion is still considered like one of the worst things that can happen to someone, like drugs, booze, gambling, or other addictions.

TheDoctor394: My point is that not whether you agree with Christianity's teachings or not, but what they are. Both Biblically and historically, Christianity teaches that we are saved through Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. Through faith in Him, we have salvation. "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No-one comes to the Father but my me." John 14:6.

Now you disagree with that, and that's fine, but these have always been core Christian teachings (and you have to deny two thousand years of history to say otherwise), just like every other religion has its core beliefs. People all make firm claims (whether they be religious or anything else), and, if anyone disagrees with us, naturally we have to conclude that they're wrong, just as you've been telling me and Luxxis that we're wrong when we disagree with you. And the fact is that people are either right or wrong when we say something. And two contradictory views might both be wrong, but they cannot both be right.

You said, "You know, we're all free to choose the religion that fits us best. However, one can never advance their own religion by belittling the validity of another religion."

And yet you've been doing this very thing. When you disagree with a particular religion's teachings, you are belittling its validity. Either you agree with it, or you don't. Just like the rest of us.

Zanjan: Chron, oh dear, religion doesn't "just happen" to somebody. It's all around us - no one escapes some degree of exposure.

If one is born into a religious family, they can always choose a different religion or no religion when they come of age, if they want to. The downside is family members often make that into a bone of contention - that is, to leave the parents' religion is to split up the family.

Threat of separation only happens when individuals WANT to make it happen - it's not a natural outcome, it's a deliberate personal act, one that doesn't project any love.

I came from a non-religious family - atheists, who pretended to be agnostics. The day I announced I'd become religious was the day my parents no longer considered me their daughter, and my sisters decided I had nothing in common with them - suddenly, I was the enemy.

What's the difference? None whatsoever. Alas, this event is one of many human failures. It happens because people insist on choosing their own values. You can't take that away from them, even by force.

chronology: Well Zan, many families seem to reject their religious inlaws for the exact same reason as they reject family members who have become drug addicts, alcoholics, or gambling addicts, or mentally ill, they just don't need the grief.

If I ever meet someone with strong religious views, the first thing I do is get as far away from them as possible. Just like with drug abusers or alcoholics or gambling addicts. There is nothing I can say or do to help them, so I help myself and move on.

You are curious Zan in that you seem to steer other people to religion, but avoid it yourself.

Zanjan: What? I'm an active member in good standing of a religion - the Baha'i Faith. I'm a believer in God and follow His laws, as I've said this many times. Where's the avoidance?

chronology: I asked you if you ever attended any services for your religion. You said 'no there are no Baha temples in your district' .

Zanjan: Doc, I don't disagree with the verses you cited. I'd challenge you to cite a verse that says there is "only one true religion".

If this were a core belief, as important as you make it out to be, surely none of the Prophets of God would have neglected to say it very precisely and consistently repeat that. Surely you'd hear it in every sermon and read it in every religious tract. Nope, doesn't happen. Then where is the evidence that "one true religion" is a core Christian tenet?

Here's what all the Prophets DID say:

God is ONE - the Cause of God is ONE - the Faith of God is ONE. Over and over again, God explains that human faith is not divine faith. Faith isn't an organization. Faith is Trust. Ergo, religious faith ( insert name of the religion) = trust in the name of that religion.

One can trust in the name of a Prophet but not trust in God - people do it all the time. Either you have it or you don't - no sandwich here. This is why some religious people are faithless. Lots of concrete proof around.

Zanjan: Doc: "When you disagree with a particular religion's teachings, you are belittling its validity. "

There's no way one can belittle any religion or teaching merely by their own degree of understanding. Fear not and thank God for that.


"To belittle" is a verb - an act. For example, one belittles the validity of another religion by publicly professing their own religion is the only true one - they're saying, 'we rate, you don't'. You've never seen me do this, not once.

If I disagree with some particular teaching, I can give evidence and proof for my position; indeed it's the responsible thing to do. I lend an ear to the other person's view and if they show how my position is unworkable, I'm fine with that. If they don't, I'm fine with that too. So, how can you say that's belittling their religious teachings? If I walk away, is that belittling the other?

I will say I'm not fond of those who believe they won't be held accountable for what they utter. I show them how they are, here and now. No need to wait until they die. They can never use the excuse that nobody told them.

So, if you (generic you) were to call me stupid or spit on my head, those are actions - the intent is to belittle me, to humiliate me. Some individuals attempted to do that to Jesus - did the scourging, mockery, accusations and blame work to humiliate Him, to put Him in a lower place? No, He rose. Do those who try to vaunt themselves over others rise into heaven?

Zanjan: The Kingdom of God is in the heart. Now, Doc, you can choose the way Christ lived, or the way your fellow Christians live - your choice is not my business.

My business is to educate and correct errors in facts. My aim is to eliminate prejudices - the thing that leads to hatreds.

I've never denied the validity of Christ and His words. You know this, since I've been posting at Wire for years. In fact, not only do I believe in Christ, I defend Him better than many Christians can. However, the state of modern Christianity by no means reflects the actions and words of Christ - that disappeared a long time ago.

I can only pray that, for the sake of the Cause of God, Christians will make a better effort to pull up their socks. I think there's a good chance of that for those who want to stay in the conversation.

Zanjan: Chron, Baha'is dont attend services in the manner that Christians do. We're fully interactive with no clergy. Each takes our religion's governing on our own shoulders. We have a Temple on each continent - these aren't used for Baha'i functions; their purpose is to be meditative sanctuaries for all people.

Our meetings and commemorations are held in homes or community centers - with or without others present. When I lived in the city where there were other Baha'is, I was present in the flesh, wherever gatherings had been scheduled.

Out here in the sticks, there's only me; so, I conduct these events on my own on the appropriate dates. Often, no gatherings - I have God and all the holy souls around me so we connect. Phone calls and emails work for meetings between occasional trips to the city for Baha'i gatherings. When another Baha'i moves into my area, well, the more co-workers, the merrier.

chronology: Sounds interesting Zan. Seems a clever way to hold meetings, over Skype. When the 5G phone Network is up and running in a few years Baha folks will be able to hold Virtual Reality meetings.

Zanjan: You know, the first conference call was made using drum beats and smoke signals. Distance will never stop us. We've had teleconference calls since the mid 1950s; conference bridges soon followed. They still work from anywhere. Not everyone is computer literate or even has a device so, that method is more inclusive.

It might be fun to see faces - the silent winces, rolling eyes, poking a bug walking across the table - but I think tone of voice and cadence still best conveys the intended message. Just ask Mr. Comey, former Director of the FBI.

This is likely why it used to be forbidden for an actor to portray the Prophets of God in theater or film - too many distractions. Print remains the most reliable form of communication.

chronology: Maybe Zan but the sooner everywhere has 5G the better.

TheDoctor394: Zan, who are these prophets of God to whom you keep referring? And how do you know they are prophets of God?

Zanjan: Recorded history counts 9 great religions surviving to the present day; each of their Prophet-Founders delivered His own Book:
Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'ullah.

I've recognized Who They are by several means; they had to fill a number of criteria for that rank - their blood lineage, prophecies fulfilled, their acts and lives, their Voices, their testimonies of each other, and through my heart. These are just the basic ones.

Although I had to start from scratch, the process was faster than most because my research was independent and unhindered by bias, fear or other commitments.

TheDoctor394: So when these prophets contradict each other?