If Heaven is real, than where is it? (Page 2)

Live_By_Common_Sense
Live_By_Common_Sense: Zanjan, what about the other Abrahamic religions such as Jews, Muslims and also Christians. Is there heaven the same as Christians as well? What about Buddhist and Hindus and Confucianism. Are there religion are different as well?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Doesn't matter which religion - we don't enter heaven in groups. Like, I'm waiting for my buddy to go first then I'll just trail along. Heh........nope.

Any spiritual path will bring one closer but can't do the job for you. The same rules to enter through those pearly Gates apply to each soul at all times. Some people are only one step away; then they pull up short and stop. If they only knew how close they were!
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Live_By_Common_Sense
Live_By_Common_Sense: Okay Zanjan great deal. John 3:16 said it its self. Its one simple rule to able to join in Heaven, and its building the relationship with Jesus Christ by accepting His sacrifice.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: That's not the only rule but it's a biggie. Depends on when you live. See, if you're good enough at building a relationship with God, it's likely He'll put you in touch with the Lord of the Age. However, if that happens and you reject that One, well, no soup for you.

By the way, Confucianism isn't a religion - it's an ideology.

This earthly life is full of tests - they never stop until you've passed on. That's good because they're your only means of knowing how you're doing with that relationship, whoever you have it with.

The rule you cited is the toughest of all tests ONLY when you live fairly close to the generation that the Lord of the Age lived in. So, if it's Jesus Christ, then it's a piece of cake, a babe could pass it. As such, Christians have a BIG river to cross yet.

Speaking of babies - do they go to heaven? Yes, they're innocent and unspoiled. They go to the heaven of the current Lord of the Age.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: For example, let's go to the Jews. How does this work if one is a really good Jew and Jesus is an easy test?

Simple: God judges the true state of the heart. A good Jew will be great friends with the Christians because there's a common denominator - they believe many of the same things and worship the same God. They'll work together for the good of all mankind. They're bathing in the same Light. A good Jew will sacrifice his life for his faith in God (martyrdom), as would a good Christian.

Although the good Jew may not accept Jesus as their Messiah, the state of their heart is so close to what God accepts as worthy, that there's always a chance, in this life, to accept Jesus, even at his last breath.

As the good Jew moves through death, his heart will bring Him to stand in the presence of the current Lord of the Age (same for Christians) - if his soul has true joy in this reunion, then the gates of heaven will open to him.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: In short, recognition is acceptance. Therefore, if a good Jew recognizes the Light of a Manifestation of God, he's not rejecting Him, even though he may still choose to remain a Jew.

God has a purpose for all His servants, and some servants may find they can do their best service to God by working among the people in a given religion.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Live_By_Common_Sense
Live_By_Common_Sense: Zanjan, speaking of babies. If they do go to heaven, are they going to be still in their infant stage (just like a cupid)? Or will they grow up to be an adult in heaven?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: According to Baha'i Scriptures, they'll grow up to be adults. Funny, nobody in past history ever asked that question. Just us. Voila, the answer was there!
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Winepress
Winepress: The Greek that the NT scriptures use implies it's not a place, rather a situation

Reading it to say heaven is a location is like reading the English phrase " he's in trouble " and thinking " trouble " is a place

In Greek " epi "( in ) is not the same thing as " en " ( in )
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Cool.........he's entroubled! Not robed, but enrobed. Soo very French Cuisine

It's quite possible to be incapacitated yet enabled...it's called wheelchair hockey or last words.
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Live_By_Common_Sense
Live_By_Common_Sense: Sometime I wonder if I am already dead, and I am being tested from other spirits around me that I can not see, and judge me for what direction they will put me through.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: There are veils between the worlds for good reason. If we could see the other as clearly as we see this one, we'd become terribly distracted, unable to focus on the lessons we can only learn here, on our own.

I suppose it would be like having a cheat sheet - the results wouldn't be authentic.

Reminds me of a TV episode the other day: A school counselor was talking to a single parent about the universities his daughter had applied to. Harvard was one of them. He was surprised.
The father wondered why she applied there because the tuition was well above his pay grade. The counselor said she'd encouraged the daughter to apply, just so that, if she were accepted, she'd know of her own accord that she had the right stuff.
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Live_By_Common_Sense
Live_By_Common_Sense: Knowing the fact that I am being tested, get me anxious to see the other side of the realm. I got my hopes up to know that heaven is real, and its somewhere that I can see my deceased grandmas and grandpa, and many of my lost family members. I want to connect with them, and let them know I wanted a better relationship with them. I just have hope, and hope is all I need.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: You're assuming you'll simply go to wherever they are. You don't get to choose where you go, God does; He bases that on your personal spiritual development.

The Hereafter is a BIG place; once God sets you where you belong, you can't move on your own there, like you can here.

Heaven is specially reserved for those who are near to God. All those people you mentioned might not be there.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Live_By_Common_Sense
Live_By_Common_Sense: So you saying that my loved ones that are decease are probably in hell?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I have no idea and neither do you. Blood relationship is irrelevant. I'll give you a visualization of "place":

Imagine the solar system. If the Central Orb was a Revelator of God, then all of those who sincerely love and obey Him are like the heavenly planets in the system, revolving around this Sun, according to rank and station. Those who aren't in heaven are outside of that system. But where?

So, ramp that up and imagine a galaxy. If the center of the galaxy represented God, then all the solar systems in the galaxy revolve around it. Those outside of that, hang in the gaseous clouds at the very distant fringe. So very vast!

The reality is certainly not the black and white story you've heard, which merely ascribes to personal feelings about one's own placement.

In this world, one might be like the comet, that hurtles towards the sun then whips around and gets slung back out to the boonies; but, in the Hereafter, that doesn't happen - there's no reverse. One can't slide back, so to speak, or hurtle either.

The Hereafter is all about distance and nearness to God; it's a matter of spiritual development, which gives one the ability to communicate and relate. Every soul eventually returns to God, but those on the fringe can't move, can't relate, can't feel God's grace. Who will pray for them, here or there, if they don't know them?

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Live_By_Common_Sense
Live_By_Common_Sense: Zanjan. There was theories that been told that Heaven and God is outside of the universe. Some place where we can not reach to. Theories like that confuses me. So its like we are in a box, and God is outside of the box, controlling with His supreme power. And in order to get to heaven we have to be sinless. Which through worldly effort it is hard to do.

So tell me Zanjan. Is God somewhere in the galaxy on an another planet? Or is God outside of the universe? Outside of the "box of universe" to simply explain.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: God is placeless in respect to His Creation. He's pre-existant - that is, beyond and above our knowledge. Since He's the Source of all things in existence, we can't apply any location to that reality as this would require measurement.

We can only say God is "present".

Language has its limitations, especially ancient language. The ancients were satisfied with saying God is IN heaven but heaven only applies to humans since it has degrees. Heaven is a state of mind, dependent on one's love for God.

To say God is literally in heaven implies God dwells in degrees of closeness to Himself - illogical. Thus, it was a figure of speech.

Like when we say God is in your heart, we don't mean physically because genuine love is limitless, it has no boundaries. When referring to the heaven of God's Faith, we're pointing to the perfect beauty and power of His Revelations - it's all good.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: In short, everything is relative. For everything physical, there is a spiritual counterpart, a force behind it. God made all the laws in the universe - they have to work similarly on both planes of existence, else God's Great Plan would have no effect.

This is why we can use metaphors - heaven and earth operate on the same principles. "Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven" - Cause and Effect.

You see how the ordered universe is constructed - it's fluid, it moves, it has waves; yet, it has gravity holding the bodies together in their positions as they orbit a central point and in relation to other bodies by roughly 7 degrees. When scriptures have said "the sun moves in a fixed position", that boggled the minds of our forbearers.

Today, we know it means the sun revolves on its axis. We also know that our solar system, sitting in position in the arm of our galaxy, makes its circuit around the center of the spinning galaxy once every 230 million years, at the speed of 515,000 miles per hour.

Science says that the universe is "space", expanding in all directions so, a void in creation is impossible. Galaxies collide, as if they were colours of dye in water. Black holes eat up stars and planets then spit them back out with new life. Huge gaseous clouds are the birthplace of new suns. Take a lesson.

Baha'i writings say, everything is swimming in the sea of creation - WE are all swimming in it.

The Revelators of God are the "Suns of Reality". The celestial bodies are countless and infinite - we can never see to the actual beginning or end; due to the nature of time, those bodies come into our view then gradually fall out of our view. This is true in both physical and spiritual worlds.

Thus, those who don't love God, fall out of view as in death. To the lovers of God, that state is "non-existence" in comparison to the life of the soul in the heavenly worlds.

All those hints in past scriptures are now unfolding into factual knolwedge and understanding. What a time to be living in!!
(Edited by Zanjan)
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rockmass
rockmass: While I agree with Zanjan. I see things slightly different.

Heaven is a different realm.
It is not like the physical realm.
The physical realm consists of space (height, width, & length).
The spiritual realm is completely different, unknown to our understanding.

If someone was born blind, how would you describe a painting or colors?
You would have to use things they could comprehend.
I believe God speaks to us in terms we can comprehend.

I believe Angels do not have wings, but God gives visions of Angels with wings to denote they can fly or travel fast.
Some Angels are spoken of having heads like animals, I believe it denotes that these angels have qualities that reflect God in some way.
Bull for Power, Eagle for Wisdom, Lion for Justice, and Man for Love.
Some Angels have two wings, some have six, possibly for rank or ability.
Some have four faces, some have one, indicating different traits or personality.
I believe the heavens are designed for the Angels to live. By means of the scriptures, we learn the Angels are unsexed (are neither male or female), nevertheless they always depict themselves as male. The Angels have to do something to sustain their life (whether it is eating, breathing, or sleeping). Angels have the ability to materialize (create) physical bodies.

I believe humans were not created to go to heaven.
God has made an arrangement for some people to go to heaven to rule with Jesus.
The majority of humans will live on the earth.
(Edited by rockmass)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Heaven is a spiritual realm; that doesn't mean those in heaven can't see the physical realm - they can see both. Yet on this earthly plane, one needs to be receptive to the spirit to see spirit because there are veils between these two worlds. Only the Manifestation of God can rend them asunder.

"The spiritual realm is completely different, unknown to our understanding."

Not sure where you get that idea from. If we couldn't understand it, God wouldn't have sent the Divine Teachers to make us familiar with it. The more Divine Teachers we know, the more knowledgeable we are; and, the more spiritual virtues we acquire, the more understanding of that knowledge we possess.

Mankind is on a spiritual journey; we're all headed in the same direction, but not everyone is walking the same leg of the trip at the same time. It's enough for most to know the trail has been cleared by those who went first.

If you want to be a trailblazer, MUCH more will be expected from you. You won't receive any accolades in your lifetime for doing that. There's an old saying that pioneers get shot in the back. Know this going in.

The spiritual realm has no time or space. Although one dwells in eternity, there's still a way to relate to what's happening. One can see the future, the past and present inside the framework of consequential events. So, one sees the people, connected with those.

There's a way to comprehend that string of events in earth time - God gave us a "converter" - that is, an equivalent. This is how long it takes to get from one event to the next in both worlds.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "If someone was born blind, how would you describe a painting or colors?"

By sound and feel. Words are adequate to get the message across, especially if the speaker is talented. One can feel texture and translate to shapes. Colours have a physical vibration - light is moving photons. For example, red is hot and can be painful; its sound is high-pitched and annoying - this is known as synesthesia.

When one of the senses is lost, the remaining are heightened. Those who were once sighted then became blind have figured out the translations for those who never had the base. Likewise, God sends His Messengers - They're the Mediators of spiritual life, making all things new and delightful.

It should be noted that when the physical body dies, that person can then see colour as it really is, since there's no physical interferance. Likewise, when atheists die, they can then see the spiritual world; since they're utterly naked, there's no way for the soul to lie.

Scriptures *confirm* for us there are different kinds of Angels - some are humans, some are forces. That means they don't need to tell us - we can see them for ourselves. Some can be seen, experienced and known yet, being invisible to others. What scriptures do is respond to deeper questions about what people have seen.

The ancients only learned via visual teaching tools, such as symbols - the shorthand conveyance. Some of us, today, don't need that. For us, symbols are just a space-saver.

Today, language is more expansive and refined; unlike the ancients, who didn't have literacy, science, or technology beyond simple engineering, we moderns are ALL in a position to understand directly.

In the Hereafter, no visions are necessary - all is seen clearly; all is understood, according to one's placement.

God created us as noble, spiritual beings - He gave us everything we need to understand and respect this. So, it's not His fault that some can't appreciate that and treat themselves and others like trash.


(Edited by Zanjan)
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Angry Beaver
Angry Beaver: "If Heaven is real, than where is it?"
Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia YW
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Right next to the desalination plant. Makes sense.
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Angry Beaver
Angry Beaver: No desal here
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