Criteria for being a christian (Page 2)

Cenababy: Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26,

Cenababy: 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

Cenababy: Maybe I'll post in a blog.

Zanjan: Cena: “Whoa, the word trinity is not there however the idea, the understanding is,”

Understanding isn’t in a book, or any ‘idea’ except that which is expressed by its authors.

Some guy conveyed the “idea” of a Biblical Trinity hundreds of years after Jesus had gone. This was actually a pagan belief, so very unoriginal. There was also another guy who came up with the “idea” one should beat their child with a stick, switch, board, or belt – anything handy that inflicts pain, be it emotional or physical. That isn’t in the Bible either.

Incidentally, *I* was one of the victims of that belief, adopted by atheist parents, who didn't have understanding. I have many Indigenous friends who got the same treatment from Nuns and Priests. Interesting how unbelievers copy particular ideas and things 'believers' do. Or is it the other way around?

Yet the clergy, a bunch of inept practitioners, compelled the membership to accept these baseless notions. Early Christians didn't have any books; most were illiterate anyway. None of them could do what you just did, Cena, grabbing different pieces of text across two religions in an attempt to interpret reality. So, who was following whom?

These were not anyone’s understanding except the guys who started it. To compel others to agree to anyone’s interpretation of scripture bears nothing other than ill-motivated intent. That has ugly consequences. You see what happened with the bloody popes, the same error repeated by ISIS.

Zanjan: Cena: “Saved from human shortcomings, we all fall short, romans 1”

If one is saved from them, one wouldn’t sin. If you lie half the time and don't lie the other half, what are you? Salvation is full on rescue from a life of sin (worldly life) to walk in holiness (divine life). The former must die so the latter can live.

"Falling short" would apply to the excellence with which members express their spiritual virtues. No one can be Christ, Who manifested virtues, knowledge and ego-less wisdom in perfection..that's 100 degrees of illumination, not 30 degrees.

Whereas, division is an example of falling short, since *unity* is the Divine Standard. In the Words of Christ, "A house divided cannot stand".

How could such a divided people convey anything to us other than what NOT to do? It makes sense Christians should not create splinter churches based on every difference of understanding. Since the toothpaste is out of the tube, now would be the time to stop squeezing it.

Cenababy: Zan the point being we arent perfect. To say we "never" would sin is an over step, we live here, we are human and Jesus understands that. Our salvation covers that.

Secondly, we strive harder once saved.

Cenababy: I will always believe Jesus is diety!

Zanjan: "To say we "never" would sin is an over step,"

Which means to step out of one world and into another. Re-birth isn't merely turning over a new leaf - one has to exit the material world and never look back.

I have first hand experience of both worlds - the world where I used to sin, and the world where I no longer sin. I've got something with which to compare. After having KNOWN both, I'd never trade one for the other. No one would.

You remember Eve - she hadn't know any other way.......she had to check it out. Since she started in the right world and worked her way out, she never recovered from that. The future is brighter for those who start in the wrong place but are curious.

We're speaking of relative perfection - that's **spiritual** perfection, which means one doesn't betray God because one is God's friend; one loves to obey God and does so willingly and happily; one has abandoned self and lives in and through God.

God doesn't sin. He wants the same for us as He wants for Himself. He told us what that is. This is the gift, the life God offers man - holiness, which is the divine art of living. Until a man is living without sin, he's not the whole package.

Cenababy: Yes, I understand, yes I live both. I consider though, example; anger is sin. Does a person ever get angry or fall short, I think so

Zanjan: Anger isn't a sin - it's an emotion. God made emotions, putting them in all sentient beings via DNA encoding. They're instant and fleeting hormonal reactions to a given stress - ie, freeze, fight or flight. Once the situation is dealt with, they turn off.

If any emotion is sustained past its due date, that's a physical defect and the individual would die in a very short time from excessive flood of hormone. So, God installed a safety switch, telling it when to kick in.

Once the individual has returned to normal physical state, the mind processes the event. This is the learning curve so there are residual psychological effects. The outcome depends on the individual's ability to control their own mind and heart.

One doesn't lose emotion when they're born again; new understanding tempers the impulse and psychological ramifications of stress. In other words, anger isn't replaced with prejudice or hatred (as in animals); it's replaced with righteous indignation - a requirement for justice. Justice can't be executed otherwise.

This is the foundation for the old maxim "Beware the wrath of a patient man". Even God has a line you don't cross.

If we assert the claim that we aren't animals, then we don't behave like them. We've risen above that nature. Not only is that in OT text, this has consistently been proven.

Dennae: I was always taught that there are three things you must do to follow in the footsteps of Jesus (AKA be a Christian):

1. Carrying on the work of Jesus
2. Doing greater works than Jesus
3. As a means to that end, we have access in Prayer to Jesus, so that everything we need we can ask for and receive it

John 14:12-14

Cenababy: Never heard that before

Zanjan: You know, there’s a common belief that when one deeply internalizes a thing, it’s in their eyes and written all over their face. The individual’s physical facial features match what they are. As they say, you are what you eat. Not everyone is so easy to read but many are.

Before I met the man who was to be my husband, I’d seen him in a photo, not knowing his name or who he was. My first thought was ‘THAT man is a Christian’ because he looked like one. I can’t define that for you but I KNEW instantly he was a dedicated family man, not a womanizer. It never came to mind that, one day, I’d actually meet him.

Yet it happened, serendipitously. I had to ask if he was religious. He told me he’d been brought up Christian and was baptized in the Lutheran church at age 14. He must have thought I was kook when I gleefully shouted “Yes, I knew it!”

Well, he was no longer active in the church. I didn’t want to press further at the time but I was struck by his genuine sincerity, and his principles and values were close to mine. We were married in a Baha’i ceremony – that’s how giving he is.

A few years later, we were able to have that discussion. He still wasn’t willing to attend church but prayed every night……..I was surprised as he’d kept that part private. Funny thing is, he knows about my obligatory prayers and always reminds me when it’s time to say them.

Although he’s lacking somewhat in Biblical knowledge, which I always leap to fill in for him, so is not what one would call a disciple, he’s proof that some people don’t need to know everything to be in the right place.

I still consider him to be a Christian because he says he is and shines like one.

Zanjan: In other words, one Christian will think another Christian is not good enough but when all is said and done, the opinion lies with those who are NOT Christians. They will think, if what you claim is true, then 'show me' who YOU are.

If WE can't recognize a Christian without having a conversation about God, then the Christian isn't doing a very good job of internalizing the Spirit.

Apokalupto: Requirements to be Christian are as follows: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8

Cenababy: Zan anger unless righteous indignation is a sin. If you are rightfully angry that is one thing but if you are just spotty and spoiled and get angry alot, there is intent, hence anger!

Zanjan: AA, if the requirement to be a Christian is a gift from God, then one might as well pack up and go home because there isn't anything one can do about it.

Cena, not every wrong doing is a sin, and not every sin is done with intent.

That a Christian gets angry doesn't mean he's not a Christian, it means he's not understanding something. Was not the purpose of Christ to heal the sick? Much healing can come with the receipt of knowledge, even more with understanding.

Good Christians, poor Christians and everything in between........Biblically, the only legitimate comparison of believers is between the Covenant keepers and Covenant breakers.

Apokalupto: Zan, that is the requirement for salvation.

Zanjan: Salvation is not a requirement - it's a learning curve. Redemption is a rescue from heedlessness and failure but not all rescues go well or end well.

Religion is the training ground for that - it's a boot camp with rigorous tests. If you don't fall out, you'll grow some muscle and be able to endure the course. Christians have HOPE for salvation - there's no guarantee - and they hope to achieve it through Christ because He promised He is the way. Keeping the Covenant is the first order of test but there are many more that are equally important.

To be saved is to have left the world and entered the kingdom of God, where heaven is. When you're in heaven, you definitely know it.

Like any school, you get out of it what you put into it but you don't graduate unless God passes you. That's not your call nor anyone else's.

Apokalupto: Zanjan. FALSE GOSPEL ALERT.

Salvation is not a learning curve! Eternal salvation is not a process! Eternal salvation is sure and absolutely guaranteed once one fully trusts and puts their faith in Christ for what He did for us.

Is there a possibility that you can die? If so then you aren’t saved. (Salvation of the soul)

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

How do we know that we have “present tense” eternal life?

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

“What is the commandment of Jesus?”

1John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

“What can we do to do the works and what are they?”

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

“Who did God send and why?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

“Faith without works is dead?”

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Are you in debt? Then you have not received the free gift of God. When it comes to salvation, grace and works don’t mix.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

“How are you become righteous then if the gift of God is free?”

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Christ justifies me by believing on Him who died for my sins.

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

So its by faith only and faith is accounted as righteousness, not works accounted as righteousness, for if you offend in one point you are guilty of all the law.
Some fools say that is Pauls gospel.

Jesus says the same thing.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Take my tears and a broken heart.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luke 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

AA, How do you know that her works didn’t save her? Show me how she was forgiven and what saved her!

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

So Jesus tells her how she was saved and forgiven, by faith. The scriptures are consistent.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

“You’re wrong AA, true faith has works.”

That woman had no works, and her sins were many.
WHEN IT COMES TO SALVATION, Grace and Works do not mix.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

What about James 2?
What about it? I just showed you romans 11:6 above, so the first thing you should know is works are not works if it has grace involved, and grace is not grace if it has works involved. That is referring to salvation from sin, James 2 isn’t, that’s “also” why James 2 mentions faith and works together but it still does not contradict Rom11:6 because they’re not both talking about salvation from “SIN.” Different context for different things.

“Wrong again AA, its faith and works not grace and works.”

How do you even receive grace?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Looks like you receive grace through faith, and it’s a gift, you don’t work for grace or for faith, faith is works-less. So even if I have grace without work then then I am saved and nothing else is needed in the mix.

“It’s a process AA.”

Okay, heres James 2. Lets put this ridiculous heretical philosophy that says “salvation is a continual process” to shame, and toss it in the garbage where it belongs, which is nothing more than a continual cycle of being guilty of breaking all the law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

I have to say that is hell bound guilty, your righteousness is as filthy rags if you offend in one point.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

It couldn’t be more clear.

“So what does ‘faith without works is dead’ mean?” Contextually its this.

James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

What is obvious about James 2 is that its not salvation from sin, but what’s needful for the body, since faith doesn’t take care of the body, it takes care of the soul. James is telling the brethren (The already saved) to get to work and help peoples physical needs. It has nothing to do with salvation from sin.

Also James 2 is from the perspective of man, being justified in sight of man, not God. James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

We are justified freely. Freely means its FREE.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

“What about the young rich ruler?”

Keep In mind what I just showed you. “the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” And “whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

(He begins with thinking that doing “good things” will get him eternal life. The word “GOOD” is the keyword in this exchange)

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (You don’t approach God with what good thing you can do, how arrogant.)

Pay close attention. Jesus just said NO ONE IS GOOD BUT GOD ALONE.(that means that guy can’t be “good” in order to go to heaven because only God is good, yet he tries so hard, and even lies to Jesus) But because he asked what good thing he must do, Jesus literally answers him, for why would God punish you for doing everything perfectly? (Yet if you offend in one you are guilty of all) What Jesus is saying in this entire exchange from beginning to end goes right over his poor blank head.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which?- (Hes trying to justify what laws he doesn’t have to keep. Jesus throughout the exchange is trying to show the man he not as good as he thinks he is) -Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (This is impossible to keep)

Matthew 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? (Hes kept ALL the commandments? And from his youth? Hes lying because we know its impossible. AND If you offend I one point, you are guilty of all. Never the less because the guy thinks he is so good and perfect, but as before Jesus UPS THE PERFECTION METER once again to SHOW HIM HES NOT GOOD)

Jesus is probably like: “Ok, if you say so, then how about this?”

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Matthew 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Jesus finally showed him in the end that he cannot be good despite telling him upfront that no one is good but GOD. The answers that Jesus gave this foolish man are utterly impossible for anyone to keep and to be perfect, whoever thinks that Jesus expects this than I tell you without equivocation, no one is going to heaven.

In truth, your works don’t mean anything to God WHEN IT COMES TO SALVATION.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Who can Abraham glory before? In whose sight is he justified in? We know its not Gods sight, that leaves glorifying before men.

Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 

You see, man cannot see faith without works. Abraham was an example to us of his faith and we see the faith of Abraham by his works. But he did not have faith because of works.

James says the same thing.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Yea a “man may say” this is justification before the sight of man, not God.

Roman 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
His sight? That’s Gods sight.

More Gospel that Paul got from Jesus. (For the fools)

John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

There is nothing confusing about the word “believe” its all that Jesus ever expected as far as salvation is concerned.

John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

Jesus just wants them to believe! Just believe! Be not hard of heart!
There is no hidden meaning, no extra tidbits needed to mix in the bag. Believe on Jesus Christ, that’s it.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Whats the will of the Father?

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

To believe on Jesus is not a confusing thing, people make it confusing by adding to the word of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To receive someone cannot be confused with works.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

NO WORKS INVOLVED IN SALVATION. It is quite telling and more than interesting that the Gospel of John does not use the word “repent” a single time, but Jesus says on every page “Believe, believe, believe.” At the end of the gospel of John, it says this.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The Gospel of John was written so that you might BELIEVE IT and be saved. And I don’t think John left anything out as you would falsely suppose by adding other things to “believing.” If you have to add to the gospel of John then you believe John lied, for it was written to the intent to show you how be saved.

Cenababy: Whew, long one but good one. Thanks for contributing!

Zanjan: AA, I don't read religious tracts. If you're here for a conversation then try to have one

Cenababy: Zan he was using scripture in his conversation. Always a good idea for christians. Hence back up of truth.

Zanjan: Really? I don't think so. He addressed me - I read scripture too so I don't need a rambling *random* repeat of it......one or two short quotes as a reference is more than enough. The Bible is so old, not even that is necessary.

For example, in another topic, I set up the story by saying ' refer to the parable of the talents', then followed with my own conversation, which illustrated how I see that working in real life situations. AA has no story of his own or another's to share.

God gave us a brain to think for ourselves - that action is called "the mind" - replace it with scripture and you eliminate understanding. That makes one unable to apply in practice.

Cenababy: Oi