Why the firstborn doesn't see the Messiah

Apokalupto: WHY THE FIRSTBORN DOESN'T SEE THE CHOSEN ONES / MESSIAH

this is the real title of this thread. I didn't put that on the door because it takes too much room.

Apokalupto: the firstborn doesn't have to literally mean the firstborn, such as Saul and David, nevertheless the pattern that the lord has laid down in his word is the same. at any rate here is a list of some of the characters.

Ishmael and Isaac
Esau and Jacob
Joseph and his brothers
Moses and Israel
Samson and Israel
Saul and David


you can see that when you think about these characters beginning at the first that the pattern extrapolates out to the rest of the characters whether or not they are literally brothers.

Apokalupto: Galatians 4

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Zanjan: The term "firstborn" goes back to Moses. The firstborn all died because they rejected the truth.

Explanation: when we're born, we're born into the physical world so we begin our journey in the natural world. This isn't our whole journey because we were created as spiritual beings. Thus, we must detach from the things of nature and attach to things of the spiritual world.

Those who didn't detach and rise above materialism *spiritually* perished - that is, they didn't attain everlasting life. They were slaves to their selfish desires. Spiritual illness often mimics mental illness; undoubtedly, such people were psychologically disturbed. Salvation from this darkness is the only remedy.

Jesus conveyed to the Jews that belief wasn't enough - they had to become born again, born into the spirit through the Holy Spirit. So, that is the second birth, aka the second born.

During the Plagues of Egypt, one wonders why the first born of the cattle died because they can't know God. It's possible that "cattle" is a metaphor for religious followers, as previous religions, including the myths of the Greeks, had used that term.

If not, the only thing that makes sense to me is the animals died because they were the property of neglectful and heartless men - this kind shoot themselves in the foot and don't prosper.

wheelgirl: Here are some interesting verses:

Matthew 12:46-50

While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.
Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”
And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Earlier in the chapter it showed what the pharisees cared more about. Although they had seen miracles being done, they blasphemed Him.

Matthew 11:25-27 says
At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.


The hardness of their heart and their unbelief would likely be one of the reasons they couldn't see Him at that time. BUT be of good cheer because... He is coming back!!!!!

Zanjan: On His return, it will be the same as the last time, when He stood before them face to face, speaking directly to them, and they rejected Him.

It IS the same because Jesus said, "as in the days of Noah, they were eating and drinking and making merry...... then, "like a thief in the night"..... He took them and passed on by the rest.

wheelgirl: Zechariah 12:10

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Apokalupto: one of the examples given is Joseph and his brothers and in that story Joseph reveals himself at the end to his brothers and they are sorry for what they did and he forgives them and after that Jacob and his whole house come into the kingdom.

Apokalupto: but the question is, before that, why were Joseph's brothers not able to love him? why was Saul not able to see that David was the chosen Messiah and that God had chosen him to be king right under his own nose?

Zanjan: Joseph's brothers had different values than him - oil and water don't mix; ultimately, there will be a natural separation. Classic dynamic. It occurs in both biological and religious families.

My own experience with that is the wicked fear the righteous will expose them for what they are and go after them. (they don't understand how the righteous mind works) Their solution is to get rid of that thorn in their side - 'get them before they get you' mentality. Besides, the longer the righteous continue, the worse the wicked look by comparison. If they can seize their inheritance too, so much the better. This is a mistake. God is patient and will have His justice.

It's a good analogy for how the infidels hijack religion, using it for their own ends.

Saul and David were both temporal kings but David loved God and was willing to obey Him. His claim to fame is that he rescued the Ark of the Covenant and brought it home. The Ark was the symbol of obedience to God, Who promised that whoever kept it would never lose his battles. David proved this to be true.

I don't think David was a Messiah because he didn't found a new religion; also, he made one serious error. Thus, he was a believer like any other, who had a personal weakness and tried to cover it up so he could have what he wanted. He met with God's justice swiftly and took his medicine without complaint.

Rewinding a bit - Saul, being jealous of David's success, attempted to hold on to his own position without doing the spiritual gruntwork. Unlike David, he didn't see the error of his ways and try to make up for them. Instead, he compared himself to David and couldn't keep up.

Saul's resentment mounted as he saw that God favoured David; that anger interposed between him and God. Thus, Saul was blinded and didn't repent. Again, God was patient; He has His ways to bring down justice.

In other words, 'Give a man enough rope and he'll hang himself with it'.

Apokalupto: that is not what a messiah is and it's not what it means. If you want to discuss what Messiah means you need to go here: Topic: Religion

this is not a bahai topic. I'd rather that you just disappear if you want to incorporate other religions. it will not be debated here. this is strictly a Bible topic. no ifs ands or buts.

Zanjan: To clarify, Samuel anointed both Saul and David to fulfill their destiny as kings - not as high priests or prophets. One didn't rescue or save anything; the other did. That was my Biblical point - strictly Biblical. Everything else is my personal opinion, just like you have your personal opinions.

If you wish only Christians to post here then don't mislead us - say so.

Joktan: When ye refer to the Old Testament Scriptures they have absolutely nothing to do with saved members of the body of Christ. Why because of what Paul the apostle wrote in his epistles.

 Rom_11:13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If you ignore this verse along with many other verses that Paul wrote you will be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine from many so called teachers.
Same applies here
Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 
2Ti_2:7  Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

The same applies with the gospel given to Paul.

Gal 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 

Gal 1:12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 

Paul was given the gospel by Christ. So what gospel is Paul writing about here.

1Co 15:3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 
1Co 15:4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 

1Co 15:1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 
1Co 15:2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 

I cannot make this any plainer for people to see.

Our gospel for today is what Paul had received from Christ.

Unless you have been saved by believing Paul's gospel you will not see the rest of the information we have within Paul's epistles.

Carefully consider the outcome of not been saved in these last two verses.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 

Apokalupto: thanks Joktan.

you might be in the wrong thread. here are some threads about the salvation of Jesus Christ.

Topic: Religion

Topic: Religion

enjoy.

Apokalupto: Acts 9:17-18

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Zanjan: Was that fish scales or the scales of justice?

Apokalupto: scales of blindness

Zanjan: I doubt it. Biblically, blindness is akin to a log or cloud in the eye. The former is a solid obstruction while the latter relates to ignorance. Saul-Paul wasn't stupid or uninformed. He was zealous for the Faith of God but admitted his problem was pride, which most certainly is a spiritual fault.

Apokalupto: 😂, you kind of sound like a Pharisee, getting stuck up in ridiculously small details and figures of speech. we know that he was of the old covenant, of the firstborn, and that he was actually blinded physically in the eyes and it wasn't only until right after he received the holy Spirit did he see again. saul appeared to be blind both spiritually and physically until he actually received Christ.

Zanjan: Sure. Being physically blind must have made it really hard to find those escaped Christians. It's rare for a captain with marching orders to charge ahead on his horse, leading a calvary.

Apokalupto: EDITED.

your first comment was spot on about what the scriptures are saying concerning the firstborn and the second born, that is what the scriptures showing us over and over in the old testament. you hit it right on the head. but it does go further back than Moses. God, even though Ishmael had been born by Hagar first, called Isaac Abraham's "only" when he commanded him to go up to the mountain and sacrifice him. I have a brilliant picture with text demonstrating this: xrusaoros pegasos's Picture

your comment is in stark contrast to the scriptures that the Jews needed more than Faith to be born again. it is the exact opposite, you are saved by faith and not by works or deeds of the law. that is what the scriptures say very clearly. but that is not the topic of the thread, so if you end up contesting this it will just be deleted so it's up to you what you want to do about that.

in fact, Paul of Tarsus tells us that the Jews lacked faith even in his time and that ties in to why they could not see.

here are some verses on blindness. Deuteronomy 29:4, Isaiah 6:9-10, Isaiah 44:18, Jeremiah 5:21.

but here's where it gets interesting.

Exodus 4:11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?

but God also heals.

Isaiah 35:4-6

4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

in this passage the healing of blindness etc is connected to pouring out water in the desert in the wilderness streams of water will be poured out. pouring water upon dry ground and streams of water flowing in the desert is poetic symbolism of the holy Spirit. the desert is dry and dead without water, and the spirit is life water is life. I have a thread post that reveals that Miriam, sister of Moses, also symbolized the holy Spirit: Topic: Religion


The holy spirit is what makes one be transformed from the firstborn being born again to the second born, the old man must die to himself and be born in the spirit to be transformed anew, as the world was with the flood of Noah. (in this link Jesus hints at Genesis 1 creation illustrating being born of God: Topic: Religion

one is of the earth like Esau but the second born is of the spirit. firstborn cannot see the Messiah as the scriptures have shown over and over.

Isaiah 44:3
3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

but more specifically here is how it all gets tied together. In Isaiah 42 as we're approaching Isaiah 53. (Isaiah 53 the arm of the Lord not Israel: Topic: Religion )

Isaiah 42
42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. (he has a law)

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee,

--and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;--

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 49:8-9 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

this ties into Isaiah 61

Isaiah 61

61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; (Christ makes known that the father has anointed him with holy Spirit and that this scripture was fulfilled: Topic: Religion

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 11
1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

it's quite clear that these scriptures have a lot of overlapping and are speaking toward a lot of the same things. some of these verses sound like Israel others are clearly about the Christ but they speak about the same things, so whose job is it?

so does Christ do this or israel do this? Christ who is of Israel fulfilled this,

he was anointed with the holy Spirit
he preached glad tidings or good news which the New testament renders as "gospel"
He opened the eyes of the blind etc
he had a law, the law of love, to love one another as he had loved them,
he was given for a covenant of the people
he was the light to the gentiles,
and more etc etc

Israel also fulfilled this by Christ who is of Israel.

the disciples of Jesus Christ and the early church:

they were anointed with the holy Spirit
they preached Christs glad tidings or good news which the New testament renders as "gospel"
opened the eyes of the blind etc Acts 9:17-18
they had Christ's law of love and preached it to Israel and beyond
they were in the New covenant and preached at the New covenant
Christ was a light to the gentiles through Israel which was by his disciples and the early church.


Jeremiah 31 says that God will make a new covenant, not the covenant that he made with them when they came out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 30:6
6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

circumcision is a sign of the old covenant and it was already on their hearts so this New covenant that the Lord was going to make spoken of in Jeremiah 31 wasn't new because it was going to be on their hearts that had already happened with the old covenant.



31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord:---

---for I will forgive their iniquity,
---and I will remember their sin no more. (which applies to them who accept the New covenant in their hearts, the covenant that Jesus Christ brought that forgives iniquity and remembers sin no more, and who have the law of love written on their hearts to love one another as he had loved them)


this is the same covenant and the same law spoken above I have relisted the verses below.

Isaiah 42:4 and 42:6
Isaiah 49:8




One must be in the New covenant and be born again, for the first son the firstborn does not see the Messiah, they must be born again to become the second born and then the veil will be lifted. this is what the old testament has been saying over and over with these characters the first born in the second born. blindness also applies not only to Israel but to the gentiles, hence why Messiah was to be a light to the gentiles which lightens the eyes of the blind to see Christ and know God.

Isaiah 55

1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, (receive the holy Spirit)
and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. (the holy spirit is given without a price it is free without the deeds of the law)

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. (there is an awesome parallel with the gospel, John chapter 6 that I have written: Topic: Religion )

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

verse 3 really is the good news the gospel of salvation, the sure mercies of David which is directly tied to the covenant. but the sure mercies of David is not the old covenant of circumcision, it is the New covenant. this type of Mercy is symbolized in the brass serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness, all they had to do was look at the serpent and they would live: Topic: Religion

Verse five ties into when he, Christ, was to be a light to the gentiles, they now call on the name of the Lord by faith who have the sure mercies of David, that New covenant which is available to all who are born in the spirit without a price, it's free. see, look to Christ on the cross and live as symbolized by the serpent that Moses lifted up.

Romans 4:8-14 (Paul of Tarsus is speaking)

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Paul is quoting the sure mercies of David)

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.




14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Apokalupto: Jesus said if you believe Moses you will believe me for he wrote of me. they also reject 99% of the tanakh in their interpretation of the person of the Messiah.