The Jews and their straw men.

Apokalupto: These arguments are ready to be tackled for what they are, not for what they're not.

Apokalupto: EDIT: This thread addresses the local arguments on wire.

This is not meant as an attack but it is the answers to the attacks that have been made on the Bible. This is meant only to present the reader with the arguments that the Jews have been using, hopefully they update arguments instead of using age old fallacies.

This thread is meant to show the most fundamental thing (I think) that the Jews take issue with in the New Testament, the Godhead – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. – I will only be presenting their straw men, and the actual answers, not the inner working or a detailed exhibition.

The nature of Jesus as God and man is in the same vein but is not the immediate topic and is too deep to discuss in length.

List of things they refuse to discuss by putting up straw men.

Jesus is the Father. – This idea is apostasy.

The Father (Whom the Jews call HaShem) shows himself in bodily form in the NT – Apostasy

NT teaches polytheism – Apostasy

Belief in non progressive revelation - Essentially this is rejection of the Tenakh itself which was being revealed across thousands of years.

Jesus is half god half man. This is a Greek idea – Apostasy Colossians 2:9 For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Trying to make Christ like a pagan idol by using Exodus 20:4 – Apostasy. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. – The thing is, no one made Jesus, Jesus is not made or created by man or by God. Jesus incarnation through Mary is not when Jesus came into existence, John 1:1 Jesus has no beginning, He always was and always will be, He is uncreated because He is God.

THE DEBATE answers all theological questions that are asked in the debate or taken issue with. Here is what the NT actually says, which is in agreement with the Tanakh on every point.

J=Jew
C=Christian

J: How can the NT be true if God has no form?

C: (We agree) John 1:18 (Jesus said) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he (Jesus) hath declared him (God).

(This answers the “Theological” question)

J: You say Jesus is God, so you’re just passing the buck.

(The “theological” answer is unpacked)

C: He who said He is not a man or that Israel saw no form is He whom Jesus refers to as the Father which Jesus informs them of the same doctrine that they knew of in the Torah, they have not seen Him, and Jesus is not the Father.

(Thus, the “Theological” question is answered, this is why the argument must continue with the Trinity because if it did not answer the question then there is no need to move on to tackle the Trinity, the old argument would still need to be tackled, however, this has never been the case-because the Trinity answers the theological Q.)

J: We don’t believe in the trinity, God never revealed it in the Tanahk.

C: This is not a good argument, since everything that God revealed about Himself in the Tanakh was previously not revealed at some point but was later revealed by the prophets etc. New revelation does not contradict the Tanakh in it of itself since the Tanakh had its own progressive revelation itself and will have more revelation in the future. This is the short answer to a much longer one which cannot be presented here for sake of length. The Trinity was revealed in part in the Tanakh, meaning that it is there, but the doctrine is not taught.

J: Still doesn’t matter because God is one.

C: Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

(How many Gods? Mark 12:29 says ONE God by actually quoting the very scripture that Jews quote to tell us theres but one, therefore we agree and Jesus agrees on the same scripture. This answers the “theological” question from the text itself. So more than one God cannot be taught or that would contradict God in scripture, its heresy and apostasy, you cannot be saved believing in more than one God, therefore a sub argument is presented)

J: 1+1+1 does not = 1

(Notice how the above comment does not address the theological question, it actually can’t because the “theology” has been answered, so math must come into question instead, and this is always the case in their arguments, and it is a fair question.)

C: Regardless if that makes sense to you, the theology is that there is only one God, and there are no other Gods, period, so any theology that asserts more than one God is heresy and apostasy. Therefore “fundamentally” the question is not “how many Gods are there in the NT?” the question is one of math.

The answer is one that is not satisfactory to those who haven’t honestly considered the “mystery” of the “nature” of God in an honest way, the godhead is a mystery, the answer is so simple it’s hard to accept, and I will put a challenge, a question to you just so you can prove me wrong and we can all go home and forget this, because if you would use logic and math for the one side of His nature, you ought to apply it to all parts of Him and uphold that standard. In-fact, all who profess to love God do accept the mysteries of His nature and character and they do not pretend to know His full being and they inform those who think otherwise to be arrogant to say the least.

“In the day that you can quantify in numbers and logic and math the omnipotence omniscience & omnipresence of God will be the same day that I concede to your objection of the godhead.” – Good luck.

chloedrinkwater: It is clay man not straw man

chronology: Annonamous. Well in Europe many people who are still alive can remember Jewish people being demonised in Movie Propaganda in Europe. They can still remember millions of Jews being deported to to detention camps, their property 'confiscated' by Governments.
You know this is something that we should never forget. And any discussion about the Jewish people should always reflect the tragic experiences of Jewish families in living memory of many in Europe today.

Thankfully Germany has gone a long way to make financial restoration to Jewish families. We salute Germany for this.

Any discussion of Jewish people should be completely aware of the trauma of Jewish people, perhaps such debates should be left to trained councillors who are trained to debate with Jewish people the details of faith regarding Jesus Christ.

Apokalupto: Chloe Lol.

Apokalupto: Historical events have nothing to do with the arguments Jews have been using on wire.

Apokalupto: I guess if I don't explain as part of the thread that off topic discussions are not welcome, people will bring horrible historical tragedy into a DEBATE where it doesn't belong. Use some wisdom Chron. You tactics are not welcome.

Precious Pea: reading

Goldy girl: AA well said.

Billie Ingle: A straw man is easy too put in a fire. Like Jesus a hobo which died on a cross and is a Holy Saint. 1 tip and that is Asherah look up which goddess she is and in what a dork many believe. Asherah or Astaroth that are the 2 real religious spirits, not that homeless stinker who pretend he was a god

edmund_carey: Billie, that is just about the least useful contribution to a forum I have ever seen in here.

Kekraptico: i found this thread helpful!