Why Jews don't believe in jesus (Page 3)

Jaguar Essence: The issue is what you regurgitate Zanjan as knowledge in how Jews connect, relate, and experience G-d through Judaism, totally nonsense.

Zanjan: What you regurgitate in public is how everybody else will perceive you. That's how it works.

DontNeedChrist:
Please direct your attention to the thread's topic title and steer back towards it.

Zanjan: DNC, you opened this topic with a question, assuming nobody knew why Jews don't believe in Jesus, and further assuming there was anyone who actually cared.

Personally, I don't care about that. I care about why they still exist.

DontNeedChrist:
Then start your own thread. Why waste time posting on a thread you admit not caring about?

Zanjan: I HAVE posted my own thread. Besides, I didn't say I wasn't interested in some respect.

You've posted a topic where you answer your own question. What could be the purpose?

edmund_carey: "Belief", of course, can mean "have confidence in", or even, "follow". So if a Messiah did appear, three thousand years after Judaism began, those who were waiting for him would presumably do those things.

Those who wished him at the devil, because they did not want whatever it was he was bringing, would do the opposite - which could be expressed in English as "not believe" in him.

DontNeedChrist: Belief has nothing to do with the Messiah. He will fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies and it will be evident to ALL of humanity. You will see it with your own eyes, you will hear it with your own ears if G-d willing it happens in our lifetime. And there is no devil in Judaism.

Zanjan: So, you're eliminating any possible intellectual "test" and "test" of genuine love. God tested all the Prophets, and all His people..........suddenly, no more tests? Did God say that?

Diversity would also eliminated - something God is opposed to. There couldn't be any judgement because all would say "we agree". The Messiah wouldn't be able to choose His people. All the other religions would disappear, along with all evil souls. Only one religion - that belonging to the Messiah - would stand. Did God say that?

Seems to me, a Messiah appears because the people are confused, debased, and in serious trouble. They need the sighted to rescue them, to guide the blind out of the darkness. If He's done all of these things, the rescue operation is over. You wouldn't need a Messiah, would you?

Of course, we could all see exactly the same signs that the Messiah has arrived....pagans, heathens, atheist, the saints.. We could all agree that those were the signs of His arrival. That doesn't mean they'd all know which Personage that was or that they would follow Him.

edmund_carey: Just to be clear, "wish at the devil" is a saying in English meaning "dislike, disapprove of, be dismayed by, and/or want to go away". I am aware that there is no devil in Judaism.

I was pointing out that "believing" in someone doesn't necessarily mean accepting his teaching or his claims. It doesn't necessarily mean adopting a mental position without evidence. It's just a matter of language usage. If a Messiah appeared (alas! when will that happen?) there would be those who did not "believe" in him no matter how unmistakable the signs of his identity. They would not follow him. They would want him to go away. I can assure you every Muslim alive would be "wishing him at the devil". The word "belief" can be used that way. That's all.

Zanjan: I agree. Even an enemy can recognize an opponent who's better, that they do as they say. No matter how much they might admire their opponent, as the Brits did Rommel, that doesn't mean they're going to cross the line.

This thread has shown that there's no difference between what Jews say they expect of the Promised Messiah and what Christians expectations are of the Return of Christ - there's no rescue.

The texts say there's a change.

I think it's a change of heart and mind. So, whatever the Jews and Christians are feeling and thinking right now, that's going to change.

Consider the prophecies. Hypothetically, let's say there's 10 of them. If a Personage, in our mind, fulfills all except one, and that one is the reason to reject Him as false, how did He have the God-given power to fulfill 9? That leaves the real Messiah to fulfill only one prophecy.

In that vein, what if 5 of the prophecies were about one Messiah and 5 were about another Messiah, way further down the road. Again, no Messiah could fulfill all of them Himself. They'd be fulfilled by a line of succession. So maybe, if the dots don't match up, there might be something wrong with one's thinking.

DontNeedChrist: Edmund, when Moshiach arrives, there will be a universal knowledge of G-d. That will include all of humanity, even muslims. There will be a heightened awareness of G-d that will permeate the mind and soul of all of humanity. Whether someone disbelieves or doubts will be irrelevant. Mankind will not "follow" him per se. He will bring with him a spiritual transformation that will cause humans to follow G-d, not him. That NEVER happened with jesus. I can assure you, nobody's going to want the Messiah to go away.

As usual I have no idea what zanjan is going on about so I won't bother to comment.

Jaguar Essence: DNC, well said.

Zanjan: DNC wrote: "..... even muslims"

I agree with the "heightened awareness" of all humanity - the religious are humans too. This comes from the spread of formal education for ALL, particularly literacy - not by osmosis.

"He will bring with him a spiritual transformation that will cause humans to follow G-d, not him".

Humans can't follow God - God is Divine Perfection, a Being Who's way beyond their comprehension. All that we know of God can only be known through His Manifestations (Mediators). If one is speaking of the "spirit" of the Age, yes, everyone will pick up on that. They always do, except for really remote Amazonian tribes.

"That NEVER happened with jesus. "

Well, do Jews still sacrifice animals at the altar? Do Jewish women go into separate dwellings when in their courses? Do Jews only marry Jews? Do some Jews belong to non-Mediterranean stock? Do Jews have an actual Temple? Do Jews of both genders drive cars?

You wouldn't believe how long the lists are of Jewish Explorers, Environmentalists, Human Rights Activists, Soldiers and Astronauts - Jewish women among them all. I could go on.

Can you name the spirit of the Age? Some have said this is the "Information Age" while others have said its the Age of "Planetary Stewardship". Yet we all know, if you don't do what's right, you will be caught, wherever you are, and punished.

Maybe this is the Age of "No Place Left to Run"?

Whereas, the HOLY Spirit only comes to individual souls.

DontNeedChrist: "Humans can't follow G-d."
What? When humans follows G-d's Commandments humans follows G-d.

"Can you name the spirit of the Age?"
Yes I can. It will be named the Messianic Era.

The rest of your post is incomprehensible.

Jaguar Essence: Word salad of nonsense she makes.

Zanjan: Thank you Yoda.


DNC: "When humans follows G-d's Commandments humans follows G-d."

God doesn't make commandments for Himself. Whatever He does, humans can't do so He sends a Revelator to tell them what they *can* do. These Spiritual Kings are God's own Servants; in turn, the people are their subjects.

The word you want isn't "follow" - it's "obey"

When believers obey God Commandments, they're bowing and kneeling because they can't go where He goes, can't step into His "shoes", so to speak. The foot soldier can never pretend to be the General.

RE: The spirit of the Age - every Age has a spirit; I was referring to the Age we live in right now. If you can't identify that which is all around you, you've got a fairly poor chance at identifying the advent of the Messianic Era.

The Messianic Era is the period when conscientious souls have read the particular signs of the times and know their day is the time of His Manifestation. It happens every time the Promised One is due; it's duration is only one lifespan. If there wasn't a way to know, no one would wait, no one would look or listen.

The Messianic Era is over when the signs change. Those born in the Middle East will be the first to see it and successive generations will see its trails of influence. Then they know He's come and gone. Doesn't mean they'll know His Name.

DontNeedChrist:

"God doesn't make commandments for Himself. Whatever He does, humans can't do so He sends a Revelator to tell them what they *can* do."
That is called the Torah. If that is what you deem a "revelator," so be it.

"The word you want isn't "follow" - it's 'obey."
Tomato, tomoto – semantics.

"When believers obey G-d Commandments, they're bowing and kneeling because they can't go where He goes, can't step into His "shoes", so to speak. The foot soldier can never pretend to be the General."
Leviticus 11:45 — "For I am the L-rd Who has brought you up from the land of Egypt to be your G-d. Thus, you shall be holy, because I am holy." G-d disagrees with you.

The rest of your post is incomprehensible.

Jaguar Essence: Well said, DNC.

Zanjan: DNC, a Revelator is a Personage, not a book. He discloses a revelation - something new for mankind. The Torah is a record, a documentation.

So, for Jews, that Personage was Moses. Before Him, it was Abraham and before Him......well, all those names listed in Genesis back to Adam, the first Revelator.

Tomato and tomAto are the identical fruit, identical word, spelling and usage. NOT semantics but pronunciation.

Obey and follow are not the same words; they don't have the same meaning or usage; and, this isn't the first time you've argued over English after you've used it incorrectly.

Your excerpt from Scriptures doesn't apply to "obey" or "follow". Holiness means "purity" whereas, "divine" means "perfection".
The Lord is divinity - no human, other than the Revelators, have ever been or ever will be perfect. Meanwhile, some humans have been holy; only holy eyes can identify them.

Zanjan: The Jews have said that Moses was just a man. If He was just a man, like any other man, you will need to explain why no Jew has ever been so great, has ever accomplished anything close to what Moses did. According to historical records, the only Jew who was ever in the running and worthy of that discussion was Jesus.

If Moses was merely a man, then He would NOT have been a Revelator, nor would successive Revelators have confirmed that He was. What He looked like on the outside had nothing to do with what He was like on the inside, not that you know what His visage was like.

Zanjan: So, what virtues would you expect a Messiah to have?

DontNeedChrist: The topic is why Jews don't believe in jesus. If you want to discuss other topics then create your own threads. I don't waste time in rabbit holes.

Zanjan: Of course not - wouldn't want to put you on the spot.

DontNeedChrist: You can't put me on the spot when you change the topic. Address the topic and we'll see how you do. Do you have comments about why Jews reject jesus? If not, then not much to discuss with you in this thread.